Silver or mushroom??????

I think Chesnut Liver with sooty and flaxen - and she is a pretty girl !! Are you going to test her and put us out of our misery ?

Sure I´m going to test her --- but I don´t bred her and she is still with mommy so it has to wait till end of summer, when she moves. Yesterday I saw some pics of one of her full sisters --- Dafynah --she looks almost like a twin except she has 3 white feet, the coat a bit lighter and the mane a bit darker and the blaze is slightly dished between the ears. She is 3 years now and her breeder (who is a friend of mine) is going to visit her in August and will take several pics of her ---- a chance for me to see how Daniha will come out in a few years.
Palomino isn´t possible -- her father is dark brown (ok -- you can suspect a smoky there, but there is no creme blood on either side), her mom is a dark chestnut with Bend´or spots.

I took a pic of her tummy, too -- and she is sabino as well ----- Sabino does funny things sometimes, so maybe ......... -- still looking for someone responsible ;)

I looked for pics of her ancestors --- and on daddys side I found Bunbury Figaro who has markings just like her -- her great grandfather Mahogany is Rabicano and Daddy, too, has sabino-markings.

I have added all I could find of pics of her ancestors: [url]http://www.allbreedpedigree.com/index.p…]

I thought this mare was Welsh??
Anyway, the Bunbury animals are suspect for colour IMO, that is not straightforward Bay, I would not be surprised if there was Cream, suppressed/masked by Grey, but there is no way to prove it, and it might be something else.
I suspect there is something, and I am happy to admit I have NO idea what!, going on in Welsh, something that causes that funny colour they enigmatically register as "Cream" which looks like a Palomino + Silver (and yes I am very much aware that Silver does not express on Red base....BUT what about Mushroom, that is red base, and all you would have to do is add Cream!) Right, random pain med addled thoughts.....the stallion that produced my Mushroom mare was the same colour as those Bunbury horses, deep mahogany with dapples and apparent Pangre....the SPSBS who have no imagination, told me I could not register him as "Different" but had to pick a proper colour!
We decided on Chestnut as that was what he ought to be, and what I am pretty sure he would test as.
The Mushroom filly was born chestnut.
So....thought for the day, if Mushroom tests as Red base, what happens when you add Cream???

[quote="rabbitsfizz"]the SPSBS who have no imagination, told me I could not register him as "Different" but had to pick a proper colour![/quote]

:rofl :laugh1 :laugh1 :laugh1 :rofl

@rabbitsfizz

Yes, the mare is a Welsh B, but to enhance the size of the Welsh A several bigger horses were carefully added when the Welsh B were founded. For example around 1900 a small TB stallion named Merlin was crossed, a bit of Hackney Blood and the Arabian Skowronek --- through Criban Victor came Welsh D bloodlines and size.
This addition of TB-Blood makes the colors of the Welsh B different to the Welsh A ----I think the reason for the color-extravagance in Welsh B stems from that.

and I, too, believe that in the Welsh lurks another kind of dilution --- yes, maybe Mushroom --- but as long as we can´t test for it ......
A close friend owns the Welsh B stallion Cottrell Aur --- if you check for his siblings (he has lots of full siblings, ´cause the pairing was very successful) you find very unusual colors and shades combined with creme. To me it seems, that there is something going on with creme and another dilution gene -- that one hides the other, that one enhances the other, that one brings out the other in unusual ways.

I suspect Danihas Daddy for her color, too --- but if you look at her dams side - she is a great granddaughter of Downland Chevalier and he was a dark chestnut with fair mane and tail. Her mom never bore a foal with this coloring before covered with Bunbury Platinum. Maybe the gene has to be added from both sides ........

Hackneys and Welsh were essentially the same breed for a long time, hence the Hackney stallions in the tail end of all Welsh breeding......A friend of mine actually had an old horse who was registered Hackney and registered Welsh Cob.
The Arab blood, however, is total here-say and has always been hotly denied, and NEVER proven, so it is wrong to put Skowronek in there as a known sire.
We all [i]know[/i] Lady Wentworth used Arab blood in the Greylight ponies, and we all know that Rijm was half TB (that one brought down the AHS in America in....um...sixties???) and we suspect that Raffles was half or quarter Welsh, but no-one knows for sure, as all Lady W's papers were burned by her stud groom after she died!!!
Which speaks for itself really.
As far as I am concerned, since Raffles was as propotent as Justin Morgan it is one of those "a difference that makes no difference is no difference" moments, but there is no proven Arab blood in Welsh ponies.
The story is that Arab horses swam ashore from a wrecked Armada ship and founded the Welsh Pony Breed as we know it, but since they are also supposed to have founded the Connemara breed in the same way, visited Orkney and bumped into the Shetland islands, it rather begs the question "what did they need all those Arab stallions for and did they not know about gelding!!" Especially as this was primarily a foot army invasion force.
And quite a high percentage of the Spanish fleet managed to limp home.
So it is here-say, yet again.
Whynot, I am not ranting at you personally, I would not want you to take offence, and I love that you are here, so please PLEASE stay, but you have to understand that a number of us on here know quite a bit about a number of breeds, I have been involved with Welsh and Arabs all my pretty long life (I am in my sixties now) so I am speaking form personal experience, not something I have read in a book. The Hanstead stud was literally a stones throw from my house, and so I do get a wee bit touchy about some things!!!
So, sorry, off soap box now, I promise :hammer
We do need a soap box smiley Mod, where are you???

[quote="rabbitsfizz"]Hackneys and Welsh were essentially the same breed for a long time, hence the Hackney stallions in the tail end of all Welsh breeding......A friend of mine actually had an old horse who was registered Hackney and registered Welsh Cob.
The Arab blood, however, is total here-say and has always been hotly denied, and NEVER proven, so it is wrong to put Skowronek in there as a known sire.
We all [i]know[/i] Lady Wentworth used Arab blood in the Greylight ponies, and we all know that Rijm was half TB (that one brought down the AHS in America in....um...sixties???) and we suspect that Raffles was half or quarter Welsh, but no-one knows for sure, as all Lady W's papers were burned by her stud groom after she died!!!??[/quote]

@Rabbitsfizz

No problem --- to discuss things and to exchange opinions and knowledge is the essence of a forum -- and we are all here to learn, aren´t we?

I know the hearsay that at Crabbet they used King Cyrus for the Welsh breed -- it was lots easier at that time to polish over some in other ways not accepted experiments. If we take it for granted that King Cyrus ist the sire of Craven Cyrus (as at the WPCS they assume), then we have an very wide spread activity of arabian blood in the Welsh A and Bs.
Downland Chevalier got through his mother Hackney-Blood and 2x Craven Cyrus influence as well as Welsh Cob Blood --- he was well over the limit so that he couldn´t be shown, but you´ll find him in nearly every Welsh B pedigree at least once.
Criban Victor brought much Cob Blood (as well a bit of father and a bigger gulp on mother side) in the breed -- he, too, is in nearly every pedigree.
Solway Master Bronze carried Cob Blood
Tan y bwlch Berwyn was sired by Sahara, a Barb ----- not exactly Arabian, but oriental and definitely not Welsh and you know that you´ll find Berwyn in almost every pedigree --- be it Welsh A or B.
Tan y bwlch Penwen was part Arabian --- her father was Cairo, at least half Arab
and you know how important Berwyn and Penwen for the Coed Coch Stud were ....

The Armada story is thin -- very thin --- I think the sometimes custom to let run disused race horses (who were often at least part arabian) with the mares at the mountains to gain size fits more.

An Arab would not last a season on a Welsh mountain!!
The Arabs and TBs used in the New Forest were all hand bred, in fields, not on the Forest.
There is no proof that Arabs were ever used in Welsh breeding, sorry, there just isn't, I can remember the farmers talking about this and saying that just coz you had a piece of paper saying it was so, did not make it so, and one of them pointing out that his mother could have had "The King of England" written on his birth certificate but that his father would still have been Tam Evans!!!
"Barb" was used for just about any grey horse, and one of the foundation breeds of the Hackney was the Shales a now extinct carriage horse that was predominantly grey....
No Welshman worth his salt would ever have put Arab blood into Welsh ponies, it took a madwoman from Sussex to try that, and that was never proven, either!

Interesting tidbit about the horses swimming ashore...seems more than one breed has that story in its background somewhere....

Diane

Ok - if it´s that important to you, let´s exclude the arabs (even it would be interesting, why this fact hasn´t gotten around the Welsh breeding societies --- maybe there is a point you overlook). But lets have a look at the Welsh Cobs --- they have TB crossed in and arabian stallions -- and don´t tell me now they gained the size by applying an air-pump to ponies nether regions!

In my opinion the extravagant colors stem from the Arab and TB-influence

oh snort!!! I am soo glad I'm sitting by myself at the moment! :laugh1 :laugh1 :laugh1 nether regions! Makes me wonder about certain....nah, won't go there! :laugh1 :laugh1

Diane

So...OK in which universe did Cobs have TB and Arab crossed in??
Cos I can assure you it was not in the Welsh Pony and Cob Society universe.......
George Bowman drove a four in hand of Welsh Cobs X TBs around twenty/thirty years ago, and they became fashionable, but they weren't registered Welsh Cobs.
In my time I have seen Cobs go form 14.00hh up to 15.00hh and then 15.2hh, and then back down again.
I have seen the extravagant heads and actions of animals like Llanrath ap Braint be replaced by the "traditional" heads and actions of Nebo Black Magic and his get.
ALL Welsh Cobs, no Arab, no TB...where is all this coming form anyway????

Really -- rabbit --- be serious!
Welsh Cobs -- Welsh D, to be specific - derive from the Welsh Mountain Pony ---- now you have a 120 cm Welsh Mountain Mare and then you have the 145 cm Welsh Cob ..... is it air-pump time again???

Here a piece out of wikipedia:
The characteristics of the breed as it is known today are thought to have been established by the late 15th century, after the Crusaders returned to England with Arabian stallions obtained from the Middle East.

In the 1500s, King Henry VIII, thinking to improve the breeds of horses, particularly war horses, ordered the destruction of all stallions under 15 hands and all mares under 13 hands. Fortunately the ponies in the wild, remote, and inaccessible mountains of Wales escaped this order.

On the upland farms of Wales, Welsh ponies and cobs would often have to do everything from ploughing a field to carrying a farmer to market or driving a family to services on Sunday. When coal mining became important to the economy of England, many Welsh ponies were harnessed for use in mines, above and below ground. In the 18th century and 19th century, more Arabian blood was added by stallions who were turned out in the Welsh hills. Other breeds have also been added, including the Hackney, Thoroughbred, Norfolk Roadster, and the Yorkshire Coach Horse.

One important stallion in the Welsh breed since the 1900s was Dyoll Starlight, credited with being the foundation sire of the modern breed, and who was a combination of Welsh and Arab breeding. From his line came an influential stallion of the Section B type: Tan-y-Bwlch Berwyn. This stallion was sired by a Barb and out of a mare from the Dyoll Starlight line.

If you like you can read on at HP of Aeberon Stud [url]http://www.aberaeron.net/stud_breed_his…

Influential stallions include:
* Trotting Comet: foaled in 1840 from a long line of trotting horses
* True Briton: foaled in 1930, by a trotting sire and out of an Arabian mare
* Cymro Llwyd: foaled in 1950, by an Arabian stallion and out of a trotting mare
* Alonzo the Brave: foaled in 1866, tracing his ancestry through the Hackney breed to the Darley Arabian

I found several other Welsh Cobs who go back to TBs and Arabians .... but those above are the most used in breeding.

Why not, the Welsh Mountain Pony has only been separated into it's "sections" for a comparatively short length of time, historically.
For example, my "section C" mare some forty years ago, was 12.3hh, and a Welsh COB.
Animals vary vastly in size, the "pony" section of the Welsh Pony bit (ie sec A) has had wild height variations, and the "B" ponies are really quite new indeed.
You would not recognise as the fine "B"s we get today what was a "riding pony" in my childhood.
I have, I am afraid, very little interest in what is written down, I am actually [i]remembering[/i] what I am telling you, not reading it in a book!
The Welsh Pony derived form the same base stock, long before the TB was the TB animals were bred for different purposes, and it is not necessary to breed in TBs to get height, we have a lot of other animals, bigger Cobs, in fact, that can do that without resort to an animal that would bring down the hardiness of the breed.
Welsh Cobs used to be around 14.00hh, that was plenty big enough for a hill farmer, in fact they used to ride the "A"s as well, they were also Cobs.
From this base stock they bred a slightly larger animal that could pull a cart on the low ground and could be ridden on the low ground, small ponies and cobs were better for high ground as they were surer footed.
It is quite possible, within the confines of a breed, to breed small and large animals, either by accident or design.
I breed Miniature Horses now, I do know this all too well!
As we have already seen the pedigree of most Welsh, whatever section, goes back to a shared pedigree with Hackneys,who were bred from the now extinct Shales, with Welsh blood very prevalent (I can remember section A and D being shown with docked tails in full stallion harness and weighted shoes, in fact, slightly heavier weight Hackneys.
I have never, ever heard of TB blood being used (not legally, it is more than possible, in fact probable that it was used in sec B ponies, but surreptitiously) Arabs just would not have been used, again not legally, what Lady W did in the privacy of her own home, we will never know for sure!
No Welsh Man worth his salt would [i]ever[/i] add Arab blood and I nearly got lynched merely for asking if the dished head and large eye could have come from Arab influence.
Aaah, the innocence of childhood ;)

I don´t talk about recent years --- I hope no Welsh Breeder now uses other then Welsh Blood to breed Welsh ----- otherwise I´m tempted to join the Lynch Mob.

The influence dates quite a time back --- the TB Merlin (who is mentioned with date, time and owner) is historically, but over 100 years back, so are the added Arabs ----- but as I see it, they influence is still active in the ponies ------ the for me interesting part is the history of colors --- who has given what ...... maybe .....

We had a Welsh B mare we had to put down this spring - a daughter of Downland Chevalier - who doesn´t match todays Welsh B-Type, but she was the type Welsh B I love. Longer, less dished face - not a puppet who´s head seems much to small for the body. A pony who won nearly every hurdlerace she ran - she was dreaded!! and the best companion one could hope for.

I know about the change one could achieve with breeding consequently -- but for me the influence of TB and Arabian blood in the Welsh breed is a proven fact.

Maybe in a few years it´s possible to find some characteristics in the DNA to prove it 100%!

I very much doubt it!!
I have no idea where you are getting your information form, I am totally confounded by it.
I do know there is no Arab blood in Welsh.
NONE.
Of course I can speak only for the Welsh ponies bred in the UK and registered in the WP&CS SB, I cannot say what happens once they get to other countries that may not have as stringent rules and regs as the original.....
Downland Chevalier line is gorgeous.
No Arab there, either!

You may not both agree but it makes for interesting reading :bounce
I always thought welsh had arab blood since I was a kid. I'm not sure now if I was told this or just because of some of their similarities eg dished heads.
Now I just have no idea :D

Great grandfather of Downland Love in the Mist -- one of the most influential mares in the Welsh B breed (mother of Chevalier and Romance) -- was Craven Cyrus -- who´s father was King Cyrus, an Arab.
[url]http://www.allbreedpedigree.com/downlan…]

Then, of course, Tan y blwch Berwyn with his Barb father Sahara
[url]http://www.allbreedpedigree.com/coed+co…]

Eiddwen Flyer who´s great grandsire was Cymro Llwyd - son of Crawshay Arabian.
[url]http://www.allbreedpedigree.com/eiddwen…]
He is great grand sire of Coed Coch Glyndwr who sired Solway Master Bronze

There are more documented accounts of the usage of Arab and TB blood in Welsh breeding -- I noted only the more well-known.

You don´t have to believe in the crossing, but for me it´s a fact. Ok -- it happened controlled (more or less) over 100 years ago, but nevertheless it happened. You have acknowledged, that Lady Wentworth may have bred in with some of her Arabs (predominantly King Cyrus) ----- but the Wentworth Welsh were used in breeding ---- as well as Craven Cyrus, his most important son. With or without blessings -- you have the Arab blood, the DNA and the Chromosomes in the Welsh breed and so you have the color-range it brings with it.

Sorry you lost me with the last one?
The Arab brings what unique colour.?..they have such a tight pattern/colour in Arabs I don't think they brought anything, if they actually did breed Arab in.
If it had gone the other way we might have got Cream in Arabs, and Roan and a lot more Splash and Sabino ( although that was obviously already there)
As it is Arabs would bring nothing in the way of colour/ pattern that was not already there.

I may have got this wrong but do you not fill in Allbreed yourself?

With allbreed you use what is there already and add your combinations.

I know the Arabs have very close color variation --- but they have very much sabino in manifestation similar to the Welsh -- roan could have come from the celtic base -- creme, too.

There is so much room for speculation --- we can be only certain, when its possible for genetics to trace race specific markers back to the ancestor.

As long as there isn´t this possibility I continue to believe that there is Arab blood in the Welsh A´s and Arab and TB blood in the B´s, C´s and D´s and you continue to believe it´s not.
I have no missionary ambitions.

There is no Roan in Arabs and there is no Cream.
Arabs would have offered nothing to Welsh, nothing at all, and every single Welsh Pony breeder I have ever spoken to, and I can go back fifty years here and they could go back a lot lot further, has emphasised the fact that it never, ever happened and never would.
As I said, you can put what you like on Allbreeds and a lot of it is probably hearsay, so I would be careful of accepting it as truth.
I am not sure if the WP&CS have published their Studbook online yet, I know the SPSBS have just got theirs up, but that is the only people I would believe for verification of pedigree.

@ rabbitsfizz

If you´d care to reread my post --- I never claimed that Arabs have roan or creme ---- please don´t get to enthusiastic.

Heeeeeaaaaaay!!!! Today my little girl was to foal inspection and she was awarded prime foal!!!!!!!!!

And got the color dark-chestnut in her papers ----------------

:-bd :ymapplause: \:D/ Yay! Congrats on her getting prime, that's great! Where are our pictures? :-\

Have read this post with interest - do you think this mare is a silver carrier?

[img]http://www.northbeechstud.co.uk/maresfo…]

Way to go WhyNot! :)

Haven, I'd say no

I also think Silver (for the op).

Not for the Bay just posted.

I don't see silver in the last mare, but it's possible (it has been known to be sneaky).

This is her sire (TESTED POSITIVE FOR SILVER)

[img]http://www.dotcommunication.co.uk/lanes…]

this is a half sister of hers - also silver....

[img]http://www.dragonflystud.com/tigerlily3…

:-)

Firstly welcome Haven beech you can now post away and we love pictures so please share.

Your Welsh could easily be silver especially with a parent who has already tested positive for it - are you going to test ?