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Another potential silver

WhyNot-Ponys July 24, 2009 February 22, 2011

Forums

Here comes another one. Father is SBR Typ -- the dad of our La Bonita: [img]http://www.gestuet-vilstal.de/images_big/schoenbrunn%20typ%203_b.jpg[/i…] Mother SBR Ladysong - a cremello mare - she´s grandmother to La Bonita [img]http://www.gestuet-vilstal.de/images_big/schoenbrunn%20ladysong%201_b.J…] That´s Tyriac a week old: [img]http://www.gestuet-vilstal.de/images_big/v-tyriac%20vom%20vilstal%201_b…] Thats him at 4 weeks - you already see dark coming through: [img]http://www.gestuet-vilstal.de/images_big/v-tyriac%20vom%20vilstal%203_b…] And that´s him now --- sorry, have no better pics, but see him first weekend in August on show: [img]http://www.gestuet-vilstal.de/images_big/v-tyriac%20vom%20vilstal%206_b…]

WhyNot-Ponys Fri, 07/24/2009 - 03:44

I first thought so myself, but if you take a smoky black with silver or a buckskin with silver ---- how does this look like?????
I haven´t seen him since he was a young foal, so I´m very curios how he will be now on closer inspection ---- the pic is the best I could get.

rabbitsfizz Fri, 07/24/2009 - 05:40

Cream inhibits Silver so they quite possibly would not show the Silver much at all...I have a picture of a Silver Buckskin in another thread, I'll try and find it.

WhyNot-Ponys Sat, 07/25/2009 - 00:51

Wow!! He looks more like pearl, than silver!!!!

A friend of mine had a stallion who was at birth chestnut -- at 2 years he was a deeeeep copper -- at 4 years he had changed again and had a very thick black feet and black mane and black tail with white streaks -- and an stripe like a buckskin - a gorgeous horse --- I have a few pics of him left, I think

CMhorses Sat, 07/25/2009 - 12:11

[quote="WhyNot-Ponys"]Wow!! He looks more like pearl, than silver!!!!

A friend of mine had a stallion who was at birth chestnut -- at 2 years he was a deeeeep copper -- at 4 years he had changed again and had a very thick black feet and black mane and black tail with white streaks -- and an stripe like a buckskin - a gorgeous horse --- I have a few pics of him left, I think[/quote]

If he truly was chestnut, then that would make him a sooty chestnut now.You can see it in his neck and how high the black goes up his legs.

CMhorses Sat, 07/25/2009 - 13:35

What about the way the black is mottled looking? Would the black on the neck and upper legs/belly make it sooty bay?

WhyNot-Ponys Sun, 07/26/2009 - 01:54

The thing that vexes me are the white strands in mane and tail -- for the tail - he shows no other sign of rabicano, so thats cancelled out. He has black mane and tail - so no chance for silver --- the sooty I agree with. But look at his feet --- they aren´t entirely black as you would expect with a bay.

Here are non-winter pics
[img]http://www.gestuet-vilstal.de/images_bi…] [img]http://www.gestuet-vilstal.de/images_bi…]

[img]http://www.gestuet-vilstal.de/images_bi…]

rabbitsfizz Sun, 07/26/2009 - 02:01

His feet aren't black because three of his legs have socks.
The one without a sock is dark, not light.
He does actually look like a Wild Bay to me, do you have baby pictures???
Are you aware that Bays do not have dark legs as babies, and could possibly be seen as "chestnut" because of this??

[img]http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v131/…]

This is a most definitely bay foal.....

WhyNot-Ponys Sun, 07/26/2009 - 02:42

Of course, I know --- I´ve bred enough bays to recognize the signs. But I never saw a coloring like his. Wild bay would explain his short black feet, but the white strands of hair -- thats the difficult part for me. Maybe they correspond with the metallic sheen of his fur. I don´t know if a dilution gene or what other factor can be responsible for this.
He showed a dorsal strip --- is it possible that creme collides with other dilutions so that none can work properly?
I´m especially interested in this, because since April we have a daughter of him and we can´t test him anymore.

Dilutes Sun, 07/26/2009 - 06:49

I'm thinking a very sooty bay, which you don't see often (actually don't know if I've seen one before lol).
This silver in the mane and tail is what I know to be called frosting. I've seen it a few times in wild bays and some buckskins.

rabbitsfizz Sun, 07/26/2009 - 10:13

No, but think of it as the opposite to Sooty...and you would be amazed how many people do not know what a Bay is, or a Wild Bay!! :laugh1

accphotography Sun, 07/26/2009 - 13:34

It's only called frosting on buckskins IMO. Guard hairs on duns. Sabino on neither. This horse's is caused by sabino. Not that uncommon really. It's especially prevalent in Welsh I find.

Actually. I'm somewhat inclined to change my mind to chestnut based on those last photos. I can understand wild bays legs being reddish. However those legs look REALLY red to me. So red I'm now leaning to sooty chestnut.

WhyNot-Ponys Mon, 07/27/2009 - 01:15

He was very long chestnut --- as far as I had found out around 2 years. All bays I know had developed their black long hair after the first coat change - he waited more than 3.

But could black mane and tail be explained by sooty??? His father is registered bay (but from the very bad pics I have of him he may be a very dark sooty chestnut) - his mom is chestnut (from a sooty chestnut father).

Didn´t know frosting derives from sabino --- thanks accphotography!

rabbitsfizz Mon, 07/27/2009 - 06:24

I'm curious as to why you think it is not frosting on a bay...that is what I have always called it and thought of it as...the cause??
Could be myriad causes, the resultant phenotype seems the same though.
Frosting on a Buckskin caused by Cream??
I have not heard that one befroe...OK, why do not all Buckskins have it, then, and why does my Black Dun have it???

WhyNot-Ponys Mon, 07/27/2009 - 06:55

Ok acc -- that´s an absolute gorgeous horse!!!

I know a sooty chestnut nearly as black as him.

And here comes the next but --- but is it possible just to have the mane and tail black and the rest of the body sooty bay? Is this possibly the combination of sooty with sabino that lightens the body color???

As to the frosting --- I don´t understand why the frosting of a buckskin is different of the frosting of a bay???
If we assume that sabino is the reason for frosting --- then do we have an interaction of sabino with creme, too???

lipigirl Mon, 07/27/2009 - 07:45

I think this is a case of Sabino scape goat - it's not proven Whynot it's only speculation at this stage, any white that we can't understand gets put into the sabino category but I am with Fizz on this one.

WhyNot-Ponys Mon, 07/27/2009 - 12:55

I know that with specific colors we are on the area of pure speculation, but isn´t that part of the fun?? :P
I´m learning heaps of you guys - Germany is virgin island to color-detection. Anything above black, chestnut, brown, gray and creme dilution is foreign even to most breeder (except Shetland breeder --- but Shetty is always a little bit different, isn´t it?).

I´m looking forward to see his daughter coloring out --- at the moment she is 5 months old and shedding -- if she steps in her fathers footsteps she´ll take a while to decide what she´ll look like.

accphotography Mon, 07/27/2009 - 13:41

[quote="rabbitsfizz"]I'm curious as to why you think it is not frosting on a bay...that is what I have always called it and thought of it as...the cause??
Could be myriad causes, the resultant phenotype seems the same though.
Frosting on a Buckskin caused by Cream??
I have not heard that one befroe...OK, why do not all Buckskins have it, then, and why does my Black Dun have it???[/quote]

Because it isn't. :laugh1 Have you EVER seen frosting on a BAY like this?:
[img]http://www.fabquarterhorses.com/fabquar…]
Notice how WHITE that frosting is? That type of frosting ONLY happens on buckskins.

This is dun frosting:
[img]http://www.geocities.com/equine_color/d…]
Notice the guard hairs (I don't call this frosting because IMO it is not) are the same color as the diluted portion of the body, not white.

Bay... something. I wouldn't call them guard hairs (even though that's what they look like, for me guard hairs are exclusive to dun) or frosting (because it's not white). They are the same color as the body.:
[img]http://i173.photobucket.com/albums/w65/…]

I have seen each of these phenomenon in person and they are very distinctly different visually.

The hairs in the horse in question... I'll bet they're actually grayish/silver if someone were to look closely, not white. IMO this is sabino at work. Virtually identical to sabino body ticking, except this is a result of ticking in the mane. We've all seen the bay Welshes that have LOADS of this silver/gray coloring in their mane and tail.

Another thing that's very different between frosting, guard hairs and the bay shading is that those are ALL on the upper layer of the mane like they were literally laid on top. This horse has this silver color thoroughly mixed into the mane. Ever see that on a buckskin or dun? I haven't.

So... I guess it's all in theory, but I firmly believe all four phenotypes are caused by different genes.

vneerland Mon, 07/27/2009 - 15:00

[quote="accphotography"]So... I guess it's all in theory, but I firmly believe all four phenotypes are caused by different genes.[/quote]

Now there is a remark that I can actually agree with!! 8-)
Regardless of what you want to call it...forsting, guard hairs, dun, creme, in the end it is your opinion, and your label stuck on a phenomenon. Not a universally accepted scientifically proven fact. (in many cases) That does not imply that it could not be. Just that is cannot be presented as fact (or at least, not just yet)

JMO