Another potential silver

Then neither should the other side be presented as fact.

I believe the open minded people of this forum can look at the phenotypes for themselves and see the differences.

Also, I do know researchers that believe frosting only happens on buckskins, so I'm not the only one thinking this way. Same with dun.

What does Sponenberg have to say about this?

So what is the frosting I have on all my Black Duns??
Because I can assure you it is frosting......
Basically we are arguing a phenotype and I find it pointless to try to put different names to phenotypes that are not proven.
It is Frosting, whatever base colour it appears on, if it looks like frosting, as far as I am concerned, it is Frosting.
As they say if it quacks and swims on water chances are it's a duck :laugh1

Does that "frosting" on your black duns look the same as the frosting on your buckskins? For some reason I doubt it. It's called "guard hairs" on duns, and I find most places agree with that.

I find it intriguing people are ok with lumping things like this together but have a problem with someone saying "overo" (especially in cases where they don't actually know which overo genes are in play).

If people didn't spot the subtle differences between the phenotypes and given them separate names, we'd still be calling gold champagnes palominos.

I don't think that anyone is arguing that there are not sometimes slight differences in phenotypes which may present a query over what causes it but at this stage a lot of what we discuss on here is theory not FACT as yet and as such it should be presented as theory and not fact otherwise we are not mearly dicussing things but lecturing to people which does not make much of a discussion. I think it is healthy to point out the differences in phenotypes and also the unexplained in some which we cannot explain but they are still discussions and theories....Champagne and Overo have been scientifically proven with DNA - now I agree that if we can get tests for things like frosting that would be fab !!! :bounce

JMHO.

[quote]I believe the open minded people of this forum can look at the phenotypes for themselves and see the differences.[/quote]

I am certainly hoping that you are not implying that I am not open minded? I am, however, careful not to elevate opinion to fact.

[quote]Also, I do know researchers that believe frosting only happens on buckskins, so I'm not the only one thinking this way. Same with dun.
What does Sponenberg have to say about this?[/quote]

If I recall, you had issues with Sponenberg in an fairly recent past post, because he took it upon himself to attach a name to an yet unproven phenomenon? :o At least, that seems to be what I remember. It is not the fact that you think you notice a difference that I question. I was merely in full agreement with your sentence that "it was all theory". My personal opinion is that when people come somewhere looking for answers, it might be prudent to clearly separate fact (as in bay vs chestnut) from opinion. (making a distinction between 'guard hairs' and 'frosting')

I see no problem with calling one guard hairs and one frosting so long as we are using them as a handy label and don't imply that as fact. The only fact here is that we really don't know what causes them. We can speculate and speculation is good but it should never be presented as proven when it is not.

I don't understand this arguement. All of them it is just some hairs to the sides of the mane that are lightened as part of the overall effect.
On a bay it's because it dos't have some rule about "all long hairs are black" rather "hairs in this area are black", some have a very clear coat with small points and if the mane is thicker than that some of it will be red. the opposite of that is when a bay hay such extensive points that there is black on the body (especially along the topline).
On a buckskin it would depend what kind of bay base it had. A dark bay base with more extensive points will keep those black points completely and be yellow where the red would be. But a lighter, clear bay that would have had some red in its mane gets that red diluted by cream. And we know from palominos that cream lightens any red in the mane and tail much more than it does body. So if it finds a red hair on the mane edge of a buckskin, it's going to end up pretty much white or flaxen, even were the body orange.
Dun has weak and strong versions much like agouty. If the dun leaves smaller black (or red) points than there is thickness of mane there will be dilute colored guard hairs. See Fjords have very very small points, so they would barely have black manes or tails at all, intead they have so little black points that the mane a tail are almost all dilute colored and you can see the dorsal run through the mane and much of the tail top.

There is not a guard hair, or frosting "gene". It's just the visual effect cause by the play between mane thickness and how extensive the points are.

clear as sooty? :lol:

That's just the thing, I DO believe there is a "frosting" and a "guard hair" gene... cream and dun. If I were the first to label these I would understand the snarkiness towards me about it, bu I'm not. These are terms that have been used for as long as I can remember taking an interest in them. You know, it's not like I'm saying they are a gene on their own or talking about their inheritance or anything truly scientific. I am merely saying that everything I have ever read has referred to them the way I refer to them and that I can see the visual difference between them.

I wasn't arguing with the terms. :? It does make sense to call the effects by different names since on a bay it is caused by the agouti, on a buckskin it's agouti + cream, on a grullo it's just dun, on a bay dun it could be just dun (silver guard hairs) or agouti + dun (reddish guard hairs, possibly with silver guard hairs also). See why it gets muddy? The WAY it is caused is the same no matter what. Size of mane minus width of black area, the color of the side hairs being determined by the dilution (or lack thereof).
If we are going to go around using names for it we might as well name it when it's just bay too. Lining? Highlights? It would have been nice to call it Frosting, then call the buckskin one Icing. :D

:laugh1 I like "highlights" for the bays. :lol: Although having icing and frosting would have been fun. :laugh1

Curious... are you saying that a wild bay would have a narrower black mane and thus it might be considered "normal" for wild bays to have these "highlights"?

I would be happy talking desserts with you, but coming back to the stallion in question. We had a buckskin mare and she had red streaks in hair mane and tail, we have bays and they also have red in their mane.
I had a short stroll thorough his mane and tail and I found not one red hair -- in state there were strands of clear white -- not yellowish or red tinged, but white.
If we agree that he is a potential wild bay - then what can trigger this
If we concentrate on a very dark chestnut - then what with it?

I believe he is a sooty wild bay, and the white streaks can be put down to an unknown phenomenon possibly related to silver tail, or more probably sabino which can definitly white out a bay's mane. This is a bay sabino:
http://www.jdspainthorses.com/splashed_…" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
I believe it can do anything from a few white hairs to that, and even more.

That is a neat horse you posted, Morgan! :love And the young rider has an excellent seat! :flower I have seen the lightened mane and tail like this with Sabino and Rabicano. The hair streaks can be white or silver. In this case it is caused by Sabino in my opinion just like on the bay of the OP. It is stronger expressed when there is sabino roaning added.

The reason I argue with the term "overo" is that is NO "overo" gene...zilch, nada.
The patterns are merely phenotypically similar and calling them overo is a total nonsense.
Show me some proof that they have any sort of genetic connection and I'll happily use the term.
It's as useful as calling a Tobi with paw prints a Pintaloosa because it has spots!!!
And I still think frosting is frosting irrespective of the base colour.
It might be a bit lighter on Buckskins because it is being affected by cream, perhaps??
The Frosting on my Black Duns is obvious...I#ll try to get a picture today, if I can.

I too call it frosting-(guard hairs is okay too.)
It's [i]almost always[/i] the colour of the horse's body.

Wow... talk about different experiences. Every single buckskin I have ever seen with frosting had white frosting, not body colored. Now duns go the other way IME.

It´s a shame we can´t test the stallion anymore --- maybe his daughter shows something of his color, then we can verify

[quote]Every single buckskin I have ever seen with frosting had white frosting, not body colored. Now duns go the other way IME.[/quote]

That makes complete sense though if like Morgan said they are body colored mane hairs that are being diluted. Buckskins would go to white and dun would go to body color.

And it is still frosting :rofl :rofl

Sugar addict :rofl

*nods* *nods* *nods* Hit the nail on the head!!

Yep frosting too me too lol but mind you, I just use it as a descriptive term so if you like guard hairs, that will do (but I'll still call and think of it as frosting lol).

Well, since none of this is genetically proven, a descriptive term is exactly what it is, as far as I am concerned all any of us is doing is describing a phenotype.
Same I am afraid, goes for all the Appy talk, none of it has any proof attached to it at all, none, zilch.
Which I find very strange.
But then I am paranoid by nature :sign

A certain kind of paranoia keeps your feet on the ground ---- keep on going :D

Prof Leeb told me that they hope to have a test for Leopard in the next 1-2 years ----- then we have to look for another speculative matter.

Yeah, they said that five years ago.
NO test, nothing, not even a zygosity test and we all got excited because they said they had found markers attached to moon blindness.....nothing has happened.
Yet people will trot out Lp and Patn as if it were a done deal.
Which makes me suspect that maybe the facts they are finding are not fitting the facts they have been expounding.....

Why should it be different to any other matter (feel free - pick one)

We wouldn´t have something to talk about when they can detect everything ...... boooooring! Isn´t it the best part to speculate over possibilities?????? What can be or what can not --- or if that fits, why shouldn´t this .....

Great!

I agree. It sure will be awfully boring once everything is found. You know all of the speculation and theory is HOW they find things too... so I think it's healthy.

[quote="rabbitsfizz"]Yeah, they said that five years ago..[/quote]

Actually the latest time frame might be closer to right than wrong this time--if I've understood properly, apparently there is just one allele now in contention for being Lp's home.

Diane

[quote="accphotography"]I agree. It sure will be awfully boring once everything is found. You know all of the speculation and theory is HOW they find things too... so I think it's healthy.[/quote]

Somehow, I don't think we're going to have to worry about it...maybe our grandkids will have tests for each and every pattern, marking, etc., but I think that's even pushing things.

Diane