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whoopsie

vneerland April 29, 2009 February 22, 2011

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I think they may be slightly confused..... :? :o http://kadlec.assa.free.fr/toomuchus.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false; [i]"gruello...: chocolate with a dun gene tested EE ZZ Ccr, he will give 100% chocolate, but some cremelo with a palomino or buckskin mare."[/i]

CMhorses Wed, 04/29/2009 - 22:23

Was the horse Dun at all in the testing? I can't remember what Z is.
Also, yea they must be confused if they think they can get anything other than a black base out of that horse.

accphotography Wed, 04/29/2009 - 22:32

He looks like exactly what they say IMO. I want this color too.

CMhorses Wed, 04/29/2009 - 22:37

So what would you accually call him? Smokey Grullo Dun?

RiddleMeThis Wed, 04/29/2009 - 22:41

[quote="CMhorses"]So what would you accually call him? Smokey Grullo Dun?[/quote]Smoky Silver Grulla is was I would call him. Grulla dun is redundant and imo wrong even if its not. To me dun = bay dun and grulla = black dun. So grulla dun is just genetically incorrct to me.

accphotography Wed, 04/29/2009 - 22:41

Grullo dun is redundant. Smokey silver grullo or smokey silver dun, etc.

CMhorses Wed, 04/29/2009 - 22:44

[quote="accphotography"]Grullo dun is redundant.[/quote]
Duh, I knew that. :hammer

accphotography Wed, 04/29/2009 - 22:50

Well I did just see one oopsie, he can't throw a cremello.

PamelaTX Wed, 04/29/2009 - 23:06

[color=#8000BF][b]Is that foal pic him as a baby??[/b][/color]

vneerland Wed, 04/29/2009 - 23:16

[quote="accphotography"]Well I did just see one oopsie, he can't throw a cremello.[/quote]

* The definition of grulla; [color=#804000]chocolate[/color] with a dun gene. :?
* "will give 100% chocolate." He will?? :roll: :? Is that trying to state that his foals will be black based? Or black based with silver? Or does that refer to the dun status. That was not tested and it is not known if that is hmz or not.
* And try as he may, he will indeed not be producing any cremellos.

RiddleMeThis Wed, 04/29/2009 - 23:18

[quote="vneerland"][quote="accphotography"]Well I did just see one oopsie, he can't throw a cremello.[/quote]

* The definition of grulla; [color=#804000]chocolate[/color] with a dun gene. :?
* "will give 100% chocolate." He will?? :roll: :? Is that trying to state that his foals will be black based? Or black based with silver? Or does that refer to the dun status. That was not tested and it is not known if that is hmz or not.
* And try as he may, he will indeed not be producing any cremellos.[/quote] Chocolate (and red chocolate) are Rocky Mountain horse terms. They mean black silver, and bay silver respectively.

So YES all of his foals will be "chocolate." And he IS chocolate with a dun gene, other wise known as a silver grulla, or in this case smoky silver grulla.

And while he may not be producing YOUR definition of cremello to many people if it is ANY double dilute it IS cremello.

accphotography Wed, 04/29/2009 - 23:19

[quote="vneerland"][quote="accphotography"]Well I did just see one oopsie, he can't throw a cremello.[/quote]

* The definition of grulla; [color=#804000]chocolate[/color] with a dun gene. :?
* "will give 100% chocolate." He will?? :roll: :? Is that trying to state that his foals will be black based? Or black based with silver? Or does that refer to the dun status. That was not tested and it is not known if that is hmz or not.
* And try as he may, he will indeed not be producing any cremellos.[/quote]

Well a grulla is a black dun... a chocolate with a dun gene IS a grulla, it's just a grulla with silver.

Yes, he will give 100% chocolate. All of his foals WILL be black based and thus all WILL be chocolate. No point testing for dun zygosity, only one parent is dun, and the horse is clearly dun.

vneerland Wed, 04/29/2009 - 23:26

[quote="RiddleMeThis"]And while he may not be producing YOUR definition of cremello to many people if it is ANY double dilute it IS cremello.[/quote]

Oh come on now. :roll: If we did not care about what label one should use, why bother with this site/forum were are on in the first place. ;) The fact that it is commonplace to use misnomers does not make it any less of one. :twisted:

RiddleMeThis Wed, 04/29/2009 - 23:27

[quote="vneerland"][quote="RiddleMeThis"]And while he may not be producing YOUR definition of cremello to many people if it is ANY double dilute it IS cremello.[/quote]

Oh come on now. :roll: If we did not care about what label one should use, why bother with this site/forum were are on in the first place. ;) The fact that it is commonplace to use misnomers does not make it any less of one. :twisted:[/quote]I never said it WASNT a misnormer, nor that we should use it. That was not my point at all.

Many breeds wont even let you register a perlino/smoky cream as anything BUT cremello.

accphotography Wed, 04/29/2009 - 23:28

[quote="vneerland"][quote="RiddleMeThis"]And while he may not be producing YOUR definition of cremello to many people if it is ANY double dilute it IS cremello.[/quote]

Oh come on now. :roll: If we did not care about what label one should use, why bother with this site/forum were are on in the first place. ;) The fact that it is commonplace to use misnomers does not make it any less of one. :twisted:[/quote]

So we're here to make fun of people who maybe don't quite understand genetic concepts, or maybe who are catering to mare owners who maybe don't understand? They understand a whole lot more than alot of stallion owners I've seen.

vneerland Wed, 04/29/2009 - 23:29

[quote="accphotography"]Well a grulla is a black dun... a chocolate with a dun gene IS a grulla, it's just a grulla with silver.[/quote]
Okay. Breed specific term then? Or did somebody declare all black (based) silvers to be chocolate?

RiddleMeThis Wed, 04/29/2009 - 23:30

[quote="vneerland"][quote="accphotography"]Well a grulla is a black dun... a chocolate with a dun gene IS a grulla, it's just a grulla with silver.[/quote]
Okay. Breed specific term then? Or did somebody declare all black (based) silvers to be chocolate?[/quote]Breed specific and they are VERY consistent with it.

vneerland Wed, 04/29/2009 - 23:31

Speaking of black[i] based[/i]. What is this horses agouti status?
And how would 'they' call a bay dun with silver and creme and dun? :rofl

accphotography Wed, 04/29/2009 - 23:31

It is somewhat breed specific, though also used in minis. Chocolate = black silver. Red chocolate = bay silver. That is the understood terminology to virtually everyone within RMH/KMH.

accphotography Wed, 04/29/2009 - 23:37

[quote="vneerland"]Speaking of black[i] based[/i]. What is this horses agouti status?
And how would 'they' call a bay dun with silver and creme and dun? :rofl[/quote]

Chocolate buckskin dun. And he and his parents are clearly black based. I doubt they tested for it.

vneerland Wed, 04/29/2009 - 23:40

[quote="accphotography"]Chocolate buckskin dun. And he and his parents are clearly black based. I doubt they tested for it.[/quote]

How about chocolate dunskin? :lol: Starting to sound like a dessert. "would you like extra creme with that? :mrgreen:

accphotography Wed, 04/29/2009 - 23:41

Yeah that was my thought too, but I've NEVER heard the terms dunskin or dunalino used by RMH/KMH people. They generally keep the terms separate.

lipigirl Thu, 04/30/2009 - 04:00

Sometimes the chocolate silvers are actually dark bays not blacks just to complicate things. :D

grullagirl Fri, 05/08/2009 - 16:15

so, when they say he tested EE on that site, is that homozygous for black??? I thought EE was red? sorry for dumbness, still in the infant stages of learning....

Sara Fri, 05/08/2009 - 16:31

EE is homozygous black. Ee is heterozygous black. ee is red.

rabbitsfizz Sat, 05/09/2009 - 02:49

So, hang on a minute there.....heterozygous black and red and agouti based +CrCr is now Perlino?????

Either way, this is something that has niggled at me for a while...that a CrCr horse is automatically Perlino even if it carries red???
So....really if we are to be such purists, we need terms for :
CrCr black base carrying agouti = Perlino
CrCr black base = Smoky Cream
CrCr red base = Cremello
CrCr red and black base= ????

*[size=85]ohmygosh.....rmt....we agree!!!! :laugh1 [/size]*

Dogrose Sat, 05/09/2009 - 07:12

Red carriers wouldn't show up phenotypically, as far as I'm aware you would have to test for the red gene if it was carried, so a EE perlino will look the same as a Ee perlino so wouldn't have a different colour name unless you were describing them genotypically not phenotypically.
Some people get confused with the word 'carry', to me it means a recessive carried genetically, that is only one copy, but not expressed, some people use it to mean any colour whether expressed or not and whether you can physically see it on the animal or not. So to me a horse can't carry agouti, it either is or it isn't, an agouti can carry black (or rather 'self'), a black can carry red (Ee), but it won't express the fact that is carrying a recessive phenotypically, a horse can't carry both red and black, it is either black (EE, Ee) or red (ee). Thats my understanding coming from a rodent colour genetics perspective anyway :)