Long time now talkie! Need my appy people!

AQHA apparently has a weensy bit.

[quote="Rusti"]
Diane, check out this page [url]http://www.arrowrockspanishmustangs.com…] Mustangs are a breed(s) (Spanish Mustangs, Sorraias, Sulphers, Kigers, etc.), there is recorded breeding/papers for several strains, and there's lots of them around with LP.[/quote]

As I said, managed/controlled herds...if, for example, one would look at those 40,000 head of mustangs in BLM custody that woman was going to buy and release on land she was going to purchase, there will be no records of who had what foal by what stallion.

As ACC points out, any breed that had Lp at some point in their existence [b][i]can[/i][/b] pop up with a now-allowable member of that breed's registry (if said registry has removed whatever restrictions might have previously been in place previously, such as AQHA and their removal of the excess white rule). But those aren't the norm, and even in mustangs, I'm pretty sure that they're not hitting the averages that "normal" Lp carrying breeds get...75% having one form or another of Lp expression, 25% not having any form.

Diane

[quote="Fledgesflight"]
Sabino/Grey then?
Is she Appy?- looks like Appy mottling.

Stef, have you seen her coat wet? What colour is her skin? Oh wait~ are those greyed out spots? so she could be a greyed out Leopard?[/quote]

Yes, I'd appy + grey, and very possibly sabino. Those are likely greyed-out spots, so yes, she could have been a leopard, or she could have been a blanket with roaning with grey. Wetting her down could show a demarkation between blanket and roaned-out areas, but I'm not 100% sure that this is true of all roaned-out appies. I just know that I've seen this in some I've known to be roaned-out blankets.

Diane

[quote="accphotography"]AQHA apparently has a weensy bit.[/quote]
Only if you believe that the pedigrees of those horses are accurate! But I guess that's another story.

[quote="AppyLady"][quote="accphotography"]AQHA apparently has a weensy bit.[/quote]
Only if you believe that the pedigrees of those horses are accurate! But I guess that's another story.[/quote]
Whether the pedigree is accurate or not no longer matters. There are AQHA horses with Appy patterns that are registered. There is now LP in QH whether or not is been there all along or not is irrelevant.

There was an AQHA horse some time ago that was obviously Appy....even I remember it!! Was he not the one about which the manure hit the windmill about registering them???

I don't think this mare has Grey, I have had some experience of faders with Grey (one Mini line over here is notorious for it) and it is not so much the age at which they fade (although they have all faded earlier than this mare) but the way they fade....tends to be quite sudden, and then...*poof* no spots, just mottled skin!!
I am firmly in the Sabino camp here, but since there is no test that would tell us that she isn't (only if she is!) I guess we keep on guessing.
In this case all this fades into insignificance beside the fact that this is a lovely mare who does her job well and has a brilliant home. :love

[quote="rabbitsfizz"]There was an AQHA horse some time ago that was obviously Appy....even I remember it!! Was he not the one about which the manure hit the windmill about registering them???
[/quote]I think so.

He is registered, as is his dam who is obviously LP roaned, and his full sister who has obvious app mottling. His full brother is registered as well, but I can only find one photo of him and its not that great so I cant tell if he has any appy traits.

The only problem I had with registering him is that he's most likely being registered with an incorrect pedigree. Therefore all his offspring will have incorrect pedigrees.

On the other hand, that's hardly the first time that's ever been done!

The thing is, how far back is his "incorrectness" of his pedigree? He's DNA PV'd to his parents. Face it, anything from the days of Weiscamp, King, etc., in AQHA and ApHC can only be taken on face value at this point, because of so much "horse trading" going on...Cooterville Norrell's Little Red, is a prime example. Possibly the only appaloosa stallion that has descendants in APHA, ApHC, and AQHA. Of course, his APHA and AQHA descendents trace back to a different name...my "Spotted Pride" copy is buried at the mo', so I can't pull out his proper AQHA name (since I tend to forget it), but if someone has AQHA lookup, then finding the 1931 mare called "Little Buck" and pulling up her produce report will give it you. He spent 8 years as an AQHA stallion...before he sprouted a blanket pattern.

Oh, I did find this, which is purportedly CNLR's AQHA registration number: AQHA #113788

I guess RIS and the handful of others just prove that the AQHA had not been as successful at weeding out the appaloosa-ness inside their breed as they had originally thought!

Diane

In my opinion (for what it's worth) it starts with his dam. She is obviously Appaloosa, and pre-dates the DNA requirement. The AQHA horses that are claimed to be her sire and dam are deceased, so it can't be done now. It's dead easy to switch papers on a horse.

As it was dead easy to not catch minimally characteristics only appaloosas...there's more than a couple famous appaloosas that come from that sort of background...I'd say that the chances are the 'culprit' of mis-registered horse is likely farther back than the dam, and that any others from that line have, over the years, been either sold off as grades of unknown breeding or hardshipped in to ApHC if colts, since so many of them were "unknown" parentage.

I guess I'm not so quick to think that the owner or breeder at the time deliberately did something illegal. I find it more constructive to look back to the days when there was considerably less known about Lp traits than to think someone was deliberately deceptive.

Diane

Frank Holmes studied the pedigree and didn't find anything other than what he believed to be Quarter Horses. I respect his opinion.

It can be done innocently enough. A friend bought a black mare from the local bank, after they'd repossessed a herd of 22 horses. They had no idea which papers went with which horses. There were two black mares; one had ApHC papers and one had AQHA papers. The bank said take your pick, so she chose the ApHC papers. A few years later, when she learned more about Appaloosas, she realized she had the wrong papers. They were for a black mare [i]with[/i] characteristics, and her horse had none.

So somewhere there's a black (probably roaned) Appaloosa mare that has AQHA papers, and may or may not be producing AQHA foals.

Our neighbors used to have a buckskin mare that was obviously (to me anyway!) an Appaloosa. They didn't know it. I'm not sure if she had AQHA or solid Paint papers, but they were using her in their Paint breeding program. When told she was an Appaloosa, they said "she can't be, she always has Paint babies". Yeah, that's because they were breeding her to a Paint stallion!

I actually think it may be even more innocent than that.
AQHA is not that old a breed, it is more than possible that Appy has merely, like pinto, been lurking in there, discarded when it showed up, as the "pinto" Arabs and TBs were, allegedly.
I personally find it far harder to believe that LWO and Cream have "lurked" in TBs for what....three hundred years?? and only just shown up!! How old is the AQHA registry, as a closed book?
The Arabs I find far easier to deal with, I have seen, all my life, Arabs that were obviously Sabino, loud Sabino at that, and quite possibly Splash as well.
Now, if a LWO or Tobiano Arab suddenly turned up I would raise my eyebrows!!

There is a frame tb colt in Australia, his sire is imported from USA. We don't have frame in tbs in Aus, ours are only the boring colours :) How do the American tbs have frame and cream? Here's a link to the colt -
http://www.winningcoloursfarm.com.au/fo…" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

RF: I think the herd book closed in the early 40's.

No one really knows Greenlich.

Define "closed"....AQHA started some 2 years after ApHC, so around 1938/1940. But, to this day, it is open to TBs, which goes into the Appendix registry, but one only needs to earn 1 ROM to be moved into the general registry.

I'm not sure when AQHA may have gone to a "registered parents only" for foals to be eligible for registration, tho'.

Diane

In the early days of the AQHA, it wasn’t unusual for a minimally marked Appaloosa to be incorrectly registered as a Quarter Horse. Somewhere there’s a list of those known horses, although I don’t have access to it right now. It’s entirely possible that the dam of RIS is such a horse. However, the leading authorities on stock horse pedigrees have studied her supposed AQHA pedigree in depth, and have been unable to find any evidence to support this theory. It’s their belief that it’s a simple case of a horse not matching its papers -- an all-to-common occurrence, whether by mistake or on purpose.

I couldn’t count the number of horses I’ve seen personally that don’t match their papers -- and I don’t get out very much! Wouldn’t it be great if everyone was honest, or never made mistakes, and horses always matched their papers?! Hank Wiescamp was notorious for falsifying the pedigrees on his horses. Welcome to the real world! :D

Found another breed if Lp, probably related to Knabstrups: http://www.ansi.okstate.edu/breeds/hors…" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

The top picture of the Altai looks quite nice but the bottom one is a train wreck!!
I really am not at all happy about the idea of breeding yet another pony breed as meat animals, though.

[quote="rabbitsfizz"]The top picture of the Altai looks quite nice but the bottom one is a train wreck!!
I really am not at all happy about the idea of breeding yet another pony breed as meat animals, though.[/quote]

:shock: Agreed !