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Donkeys!

CMhorses October 05, 2011 October 05, 2011

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While adding pictures to the donkey gallery from a website I have permission from, I was getting quite puzzled on a family line of donkeys. I'm pretty sure I got it mostly figured out, but I thought it was still interesting how confusing it can be to figure out, even with good documentation of pedigree/progeny (plus good pictures). Theodora is the first, she is brown dun, by a "dark red" line and out of a "Gray, NLP" with a mixed grey and red background. So it would make since that she should be Ee,Aa, D_ heterozygous pangare. She has produced a grey dun by a black based ivory, a red dun by a red, and a brown dun by a solid black. http://www.merry-go-round-minis.com/Jennets/Theodora02a.jpg Her daughter Talleuah, is red dun, and fairly light at that with strong pangare, which it seems that red shows pangare a lot more strongly than black and black bases, same for horses I believe, at least in terms of white expression. Her sire was red based. http://www.merry-go-round-minis.com/Jennets/Talleulah022a.jpg Now the really interesting looking one is Eye Candy, daughter of Talleuah, while she looks almost like a dark sorrel, but with her sire being black, with an extensive black background, I figured the possibility of him being Ee was unlikely. So I figure she is brown, like her granddam, she is also heterozygous dun. She has produced a red dun foal by a red. http://www.merry-go-round-minis.com/4sale/Merry-Go-RoundsEyeCandyNew1a… If I find anything else sorta interesting in my tiredness, I'll post it here.

Threnody Wed, 10/05/2011 - 13:01

Interesting! Thanks so much for sharing that. I've also noticed that the red based donkeys tend to show more pangare too. Have you ever come across a red without pangare? I look for one every now and then and have never come across one.

I've also found some possible red based spotted donkeys, I know there is the theory floating around that they don't happen. I personally think it might be a case of linkage. Need to find the webpages again.

And Brown in donkeys confuses me, I haven't developed an eye for it. And Russet. Often have a hard time telling if a longear is a red dun or a russet dun. Doesn't help that pangare in donkeys works on both red and black pigment and can hide the leg color.

EDIT: Also wanted to add that the really dark donkeys with the cross on the back and shoulders make me wonder. Is it really dark dun or countershading like in horses. Too many donkey questions and not enough research! :rofl

Also the fact that there is a gene test for donkey pangare is very cool.

Ok, temporarily end rant.

CMhorses Thu, 10/06/2011 - 00:06

Is there a gene test for pangare? I was just going based off parentage and offspring.
Even if you look at a grey dun with no pangare, their legs are generally grey, not really much darker.
and yess, please find red based spotted donkeys. I don't think its impossible, just unlikely since it does seem that spotted is linked to black, and sooo many donkeys are black based, making it harder to even have a red base from black parents for even the chance at a red spotted.

Threnody Thu, 10/06/2011 - 11:58

Yep, Pet DNA Services AZ seems to be doing research on donkey color. :) They have a black/red test for extension and a test that detects the gene for a lack of pangare.

http://www.petdnaservicesaz.com/Equine…

This place seems to have a few spotted sorrels from what I can visually tell.
http://www.satromaranch.com/see%20the%2…

This guy might be one. http://www.clovermini.com/2002/FergusWe…

This one looks like they might be ivory and not really sorrel, but I can't tell. http://www.kzasspirationacres.com/kz/20…

And another. http://www.equinenow.com/horse-ad-472696

CMhorses Thu, 10/06/2011 - 13:33

I'd like to see pics of the babies as adults, foal coats can be very misleading. The last ones that are very light are probably either roan w/ spotting or roaned from spotting, but they don't look ivory and its entirely possible they could really be red based, but I'm still searching for an adult that looks red with spotting.

Threnody Thu, 10/06/2011 - 19:23

Lol at this point that's my adult donkey color holy grail. I'll keep up the search!

EDIT: Found a video of some of the Satroma Ranch donkeys. Peach Bellini is the minimal spotted with just a blaze and two hind socks who has a baby pic from above. Unfortunately the lighting isn't the best to fully tell her adult coat.

http://vimeo.com/14440651
http://vimeo.com/14440730

EDIT again: Gah, she roaned out. It completely covered her spotting, but you can still see pink skin.
http://www.hillcountryminiatures.com/im…
http://www.hillcountryminiatures.com/im…

CMhorses Mon, 10/10/2011 - 12:29

Just random bits and thoughts during class..
Donkeys seem to have really low points in general when compared to horses, dun or bay related (or something else), I don't know. Even in mules, dun mules tend to have lower points, while plain bay non-dun tend to have regular or even rather high points, but there are some with very low points.

Very low points on legs in black based NLP and regular donkeys.
http://www.mjbminiaturedonkeys.com/imag…
http://www.barnyardbrayers.com/anna3.jpg
^ very interesting shoulder stripe too
http://www.mjbminiaturedonkeys.com/imag…

More horse-like points
http://www.barnyardbrayers.com/mimi2.jpg
http://www.mjbminiaturedonkeys.com/imag…
http://www.mjbminiaturedonkeys.com/imag…
http://www.mjbminiaturedonkeys.com/imag…

http://www.mjbminiaturedonkeys.com/imag…
^This one was very special; a red base with some strong points

Cute seal brown jenny
http://www.mjbminiaturedonkeys.com/imag…

Now this is new, a NLP, "star" donkey with a snip on the nose. Normally any white other than a forehead star is from donkey spotting, but he has no spotted parents.
http://www.mjbminiaturedonkeys.com/imag…

This one is very odd too, she is posted as NLP but has the light underbelly, but not a light nose, when generally very minimal pangare donkeys will only have a light nose. I am not sure what is up with her.
http://www.miniaturedonkeysale.com/imag…

Smokey black mule foals (out of a cremello dams and by black and grey dun)
http://www.timberlakemules.com/images/2…
http://www.timberlakemules.com/images/F…

Threnody Mon, 10/10/2011 - 23:42

Awesome examples! Donkeys you strange equid color puzzles you. The one with NLP and a light underbelly is a strange one. The strong pointed red base would make me think russet, I really can't tell. :P This guy is the only other longear I've seen with a similar face marking to Jethro. He's an appy mule who I'm pretty sure had a spotted donkey parent. Strange that Jethro doesn't have spotting in his pedigree!
http://lh4.ggpht.com/campbellranch/R5bm…

I think Dun really has an effect on the illusion of where the points stop. A lot of Dun horses have been mistaken for wild bay bases when it was really just the fact that Dun dilutes both red [i]and [/i]black pigment causing points to look lower than they would be without the presence of the dilute.

CMhorses Tue, 10/11/2011 - 11:19

I will say the MJB mini donkeys were clipped (including the red one with points), so that is going to throw off the color some.

The only thing that Jethro had (that was of any interest) was a son that was solid black that had a foal or two that had a star out of solid dams.

I forgot to mention but I am looking for a NLP red based donkey as well as blue eyed spotted donkeys(not ivory). I have not been able to find a NLP red donkey at all, but I have found a few that are spotted with blue/partial blue eye(s).

rubberduckyyy Tue, 10/11/2011 - 13:07

[quote]I've also found some possible red based spotted donkeys, I know there is the theory floating around that they don't happen. I personally think it might be a case of linkage. Need to find the webpages again.[/quote]

Can you explain that? I've read EVERYWHERE that there are no spotted sorrel donkeys. What's the reasoning behind it?

Threnody Tue, 10/11/2011 - 15:09

Apparently breeders have been trying and no luck so far. It's possibly a case of the spotted pattern being closely linked to E at extension. I think the donkey I posted before may have been a case of crossover where it was a red base with spotting. But I've also heard that roan is common in sorrels and when combined with spotting can cover things up and cause the donkey to look white. This is just personal theory for why we might not see adults colored that way. I would love it if the owners of the donkeys that looked like red based spotted would extension test them.

CMhorses Wed, 10/12/2011 - 07:38

I will say that sorrel donkeys can be frosted,star marked and as well as regular roan just as black can be both of those too. Frosted works similar to varnish roan in horses, progressing over time and can make a completely white donkey with dark colored eyes.

I didn't know that they were trying to breed for them though, most spotted breeders use only black based donkeys. Do you know of any NLP breeders? Still looking for a sorrel NLP.

CMhorses Thu, 10/13/2011 - 04:02

Not sure, a summer coat would be needed, winter coats really fade. That one does seem very red though, but its possible she is a very reddish bay/grey dun. Only thing that also makes me skeptical is her lineage is from a lot of red donkeys on the sire side and a lot of black bases on the other (with no red), making it more likely that her dam was homozygous black. Even if she is not red herself, she would be a good breeding candidate for trying to get red spotted since we know she would be Ee if she isn't ee.

CMhorses Thu, 12/01/2011 - 11:19

I like how he has pretty much no pattern skewing. I find it interesting that zebra crosses seem to pick up horse and donkey patterns without skewing them like mules do.
The farm that little zonkey is from might be where I buy a zebra from eventually. They are a lot closer than the places out west and reasonably priced, but obviously more research needs to be done.
http://www.bbhiddenranch.com/ is their farm site, lots more pictures of zebras and mini donkeys.

Threnody Thu, 12/01/2011 - 19:27

Very neat. I think the reason why the donkey and zebra crosses have less skewing is because they are much closer related to each other than to horses.

CMhorses Thu, 12/01/2011 - 20:26

Yea, but zorses also show the horse patterns true,and not skewed. So would that mean that zebras are between horses and donkeys?