The Colors of Life

You are here

Fjords are....

61 posts / 0 new
Last post
vneerland
vneerland's picture
Offline
Last seen: 8 years 1 month ago
Joined: 02/18/09
Fjords are....
Who wants to take a shot at a scientific translation of the Fjord colors? From the registry's site: One of their unique characteristics is that approximately 90% of all Fjord Horses are brown dun in color. The other 10% are either red dun, gray, white or "uls" dun, or yellow dun. The Fjord Horse retains the "wild" dun color of the original horse as well as the primitive markings which include zebra stripes on the legs and a dorsal stripe that runs from the forelock down the neck and back and into the tail. Dark stripes may also be seen over the withers. Red duns have reddish-brown stripes and body markings. Gray duns have black or very dark gray stripes and markings. The white or "uls" dun is a very light body color with black or gray stripe and markings. The yellow dun have a darker yellow stripe and markings, they may have a completely white forelock, mane and tail. The yellow dun is a very rare color in the breed.
Monsterpony
Monsterpony's picture
Offline
Last seen: 5 years 7 months ago
Joined: 02/13/09
Re: Fjords are....

Grey = grullo (smokey grullo)
Uls = dunskin/buckskin dun
Brown = bay dun
Red = red Dun
Yellow = dunalino/palomino dun
Kvit = cremello/perlino/smokey cream

.

horsegen
horsegen's picture
Offline
Last seen: 8 years 1 week ago
Joined: 03/10/09
Re: Fjords are....

Just a side note...it has often been thought that dun (D) was fixed in Fjords...that is, that all Fjords were homozygous for dun. But not all are...some are Dd, so it is possible to produce a non-dun Fjord.

Monsterpony
Monsterpony's picture
Offline
Last seen: 5 years 7 months ago
Joined: 02/13/09
Re: Fjords are....

Oooh, I would love to see a non-dun fjord. Any pictures available? I wonder if they would have "normal" looking base colors since they have such a distinct dun expression.

.

vneerland
vneerland's picture
Offline
Last seen: 8 years 1 month ago
Joined: 02/18/09
Re: Fjords are....

But rare non duns would in likelyhood still carry creme? So in theory, one could get a palomino fjord? :o And even rarer sorrel, black, bay. :shock:

Monsterpony
Monsterpony's picture
Offline
Last seen: 5 years 7 months ago
Joined: 02/13/09
Re: Fjords are....

Actually, cream is rare in fjords and red-based creams are even more so. The most likely color of a fjord that was non-dun would be bay as 90% of fjords are bay duns.

.

horsegen
horsegen's picture
Offline
Last seen: 8 years 1 week ago
Joined: 03/10/09
Re: Fjords are....

I've actually never seen a non-dun Fjord...I just know that they're not all DD. So the possibility of getting a non-dun Fjord is there, but would happen very, very rarely.

rabbitsfizz
rabbitsfizz's picture
Offline
Last seen: 4 years 9 months ago
Joined: 02/16/09
Re: Fjords are....

I'll just bet they don't register anything that is not Dun in exactly the same way they will not register CrCr!!

website: please come and visit... http://www.shadowplayminihorses.co.uk/

Daylene Alford
Offline
Last seen: 1 month 1 week ago
Joined: 02/12/09
Re: Fjords are....

who was it that had the old picture of the pinto fjord?

CMhorses
CMhorses's picture
Offline
Last seen: 5 years 5 months ago
Joined: 02/13/09
Re: Fjords are....

http://www.horse-genetics.com/Norwegian-..." onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
Looked interesting, but I don't know how correct it is.

IMAGE(http://www1.american.edu/TED/images4/yellowdunnfr.jpg)
IMAGE(http://www1.american.edu/TED/images4/reddunnfr.jpg)
are those really a yellow and red dun?

IMAGE(http://i7.photobucket.com/albums/y291/PeauxnyLover/elliecopy.jpg) Thank you Krickette!! IMAGE(http://i26.photobucket.com/albums/c143/Sn0wLe0pard/Animals/Banner2.jpg)
Monsterpony
Monsterpony's picture
Offline
Last seen: 5 years 7 months ago
Joined: 02/13/09
Re: Fjords are....

Yes, the yellow dun is a dunalino and the red is a red dun. Those are very typical fjord colors.

.

CMhorses
CMhorses's picture
Offline
Last seen: 5 years 5 months ago
Joined: 02/13/09
Re: Fjords are....

Ah, I thought it was said that they weren't typical colors.

IMAGE(http://i7.photobucket.com/albums/y291/PeauxnyLover/elliecopy.jpg) Thank you Krickette!! IMAGE(http://i26.photobucket.com/albums/c143/Sn0wLe0pard/Animals/Banner2.jpg)
Monsterpony
Monsterpony's picture
Offline
Last seen: 5 years 7 months ago
Joined: 02/13/09
Re: Fjords are....

Well, they are very typical for a fjord, but fjords are not typical for dun expression in the horse world.

This pic is a bay dun fjord (brunblakk) next to a bay dun QH. You can see that the fjord is definately not the same.

This and this are images of a dunskin fjord (uls). He was almost white.

.

CMhorses
CMhorses's picture
Offline
Last seen: 5 years 5 months ago
Joined: 02/13/09
Re: Fjords are....

Well, I know what breed of horse I want next. Anyone find any pictures of a non dun fjord?

IMAGE(http://i7.photobucket.com/albums/y291/PeauxnyLover/elliecopy.jpg) Thank you Krickette!! IMAGE(http://i26.photobucket.com/albums/c143/Sn0wLe0pard/Animals/Banner2.jpg)
Monsterpony
Monsterpony's picture
Offline
Last seen: 5 years 7 months ago
Joined: 02/13/09
Re: Fjords are....

I want to find a non-dun fjord picture to see whether their lighter shade is linked to the dun color or if there is another modifier that would affect a non-dun base coat as well.

.

vneerland
vneerland's picture
Offline
Last seen: 8 years 1 month ago
Joined: 02/18/09
Re: Fjords are....

I like the side by side at the bottom of this page. 8-)
None of them in expressions that you would see in many other breeds.

http://www.nfhr.org/index.php?option=com..." onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

I agree with MP. Either homozygous dun is playing tricks on those coats, or.....
(there is something else going on)

My norwegian is rusty :laugh1 but under gulblakk (yellow dun) I understand that it is supposed to be the outcome of red dun. And I could swear they are mentioning albino there? :shock:
http://www.fjordhest.no/oafl/oafl_side.a..." onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
That sentiment would line up with the statement I heard that you are not allowed to breed to red duns together because you will get a white foal (that will die) :? :o Frame in Fjords? Not likely. But where do these stories come from? :sad

accphotography
accphotography's picture
Offline
Last seen: 4 years 10 months ago
Joined: 02/15/09
Re: Fjords are....

Homozygous dun looks no different in other breeds and this is the same dun that those other breeds carry. I'm inclined to think it's something else. I think pangare' may be a large part of it. I also think their base colors are probably VERY light after having been selectively bred in that direction.

IMAGE(http://i173.photobucket.com/albums/w65/accphotography/Misc/Sig.png) IMAGE(http://phrf.pitapata.com/uno2m5.png)

vneerland
vneerland's picture
Offline
Last seen: 8 years 1 month ago
Joined: 02/18/09
Re: Fjords are....

Homozygous dun looks no different in other breeds and this is the same dun that those other breeds carry.

What inspires you to assume it is 'the same dun?' :? Just recently I thought I read a post from you, pondering the possibility of a non discovered dun version in reference to your own mare? :o So you must be open to the possibility that there may be more out there?

accphotography
accphotography's picture
Offline
Last seen: 4 years 10 months ago
Joined: 02/15/09
Re: Fjords are....

Because Horsegen said it WAS the same dun. ;)

IMAGE(http://i173.photobucket.com/albums/w65/accphotography/Misc/Sig.png) IMAGE(http://phrf.pitapata.com/uno2m5.png)

vneerland
vneerland's picture
Offline
Last seen: 8 years 1 month ago
Joined: 02/18/09
Re: Fjords are....

Because Horsegen said it WAS the same dun. ;)

:laugh1 No...she said they were D(un) :rofl
I am inclined to compare to black: non fading vs fading. No difference in the extention test. Lots of difference on the outside.

accphotography
accphotography's picture
Offline
Last seen: 4 years 10 months ago
Joined: 02/15/09
Re: Fjords are....

She said Fjords and Quarter Horses who are dun both trace to the same markers, IE, it is the same dun.

IMAGE(http://i173.photobucket.com/albums/w65/accphotography/Misc/Sig.png) IMAGE(http://phrf.pitapata.com/uno2m5.png)

horsegen
horsegen's picture
Offline
Last seen: 8 years 1 week ago
Joined: 03/10/09
Re: Fjords are....

Sorry if I wasn't clear...yes, Fjords and Quarter Horses carry the same genetic markers with their dun alleles, strongly suggesting that they are getting their dun dilution from the same ancestral source.

Monsterpony
Monsterpony's picture
Offline
Last seen: 5 years 7 months ago
Joined: 02/13/09
Re: Fjords are....

I like the side by side at the bottom of this page. 8-)
None of them in expressions that you would see in many other breeds.

http://www.nfhr.org/index.php?option=com..." onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

I agree with MP. Either homozygous dun is playing tricks on those coats, or.....
(there is something else going on)

My norwegian is rusty :laugh1 but under gulblakk (yellow dun) I understand that it is supposed to be the outcome of red dun. And I could swear they are mentioning albino there? :shock:
http://www.fjordhest.no/oafl/oafl_side.a..." onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
That sentiment would line up with the statement I heard that you are not allowed to breed to red duns together because you will get a white foal (that will die) :? :o Frame in Fjords? Not likely. But where do these stories come from? :sad

They have their colors and terminology confused. What they are calling an albino (kvit) is a [cremello/perlino/smokey cream] dun. Breeding gulblakk (dunalino), ulsblakk (dunskin) or a grå (grullo if it happens to be carrying cream) together can get you a kvit (double dilute cream)

.

duncentralstation
Offline
Last seen: 9 years 5 months ago
Joined: 04/06/09
Re: Fjords are....

Homozygous dun looks no different in other breeds and this is the same dun that those other breeds carry. I'm inclined to think it's something else. I think pangare' may be a large part of it. I also think their base colors are probably VERY light after having been selectively bred in that direction.

I'm in 99.9999% agreement with you ACC!! If you look at a lot of Fjords, the pangare is quite evident on their muzzles. I don't know that all Fjords have pangare, so don't know if they are all homozygous for it, but if they are, the double dose of pangare could potentially have an overall lightening effect on the coat. Then again, maybe it only takes one dose of it.

And it's also possible that they may naturally have paler base colors, too. Hard to say since I've only ever seen dun and dun/cream dilute Fjords. BTW, that was news to me that they can be Dd!! I wonder if they don't register those?

The one tiny place where I maybe sort of disagree is that DD duns look no different than Dd duns. And I only *maybe sort of" disagree, because it would be a harder one to study and prove. But at least one breeder of grullas has noticed that their grullas (both parents grulla) that proved to be DD via progeny (before there was the zygosity test) did seem to be lighter shades than their parents'.

But that could be tricky, because you cannot know what other genes the parents may have that are lightening or darkening their shades and what they did or did not pass on to that lighter shade offspring. And all kinds of other factors, of course. But, if there is anything to it, keep in mind that the lighter DD offspring aren't necessarily significantly lighter than their Dd parents. So take this with a grain of salt ... or a fairly large block of it. :D

But, I do agree with you that pangare could be playing a big role here, as I've noticed that myself, and commented on it before in other forums. The pangare can also lighten the lower legs. Since there are many (non-red based) Fjords that don't have solid leg points, we can see the lightened non-black hair on the backs of their legs fairly easily. And on red based Fjords, the paler lower legs are even more obvious, of course.

Nancy Castle
[url=http://www.duncentralstation.com]Dun Central Station[/url]

accphotography
accphotography's picture
Offline
Last seen: 4 years 10 months ago
Joined: 02/15/09
Re: Fjords are....

For those that may be unsure how much effect pangare' can have on a non-dilute, just look at some Haflingers. Sure the argument could be made that it's something other than pangare', but I doubt that I think.

IMAGE(http://i173.photobucket.com/albums/w65/accphotography/Misc/Sig.png) IMAGE(http://phrf.pitapata.com/uno2m5.png)

jilmavi
jilmavi's picture
Offline
Last seen: 7 years 3 months ago
Joined: 04/12/09
Re: Fjords are....

My norwegian is rusty :laugh1 but under gulblakk (yellow dun) I understand that it is supposed to be the outcome of red dun. And I could swear they are mentioning albino there? :shock:
http://www.fjordhest.no/oafl/oafl_side.a..." onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
That sentiment would line up with the statement I heard that you are not allowed to breed to red duns together because you will get a white foal (that will die) :? :o Frame in Fjords? Not likely. But where do these stories come from? :sad

Actually, what it does say is that dunalino is a variant of red dun (I assume they mean that it is red based then), and that "to get this colour at least one of the parents must carry the albino gene" . Now there are still many myths about in the Fjord horse world, but I have never heard that you should not breed two red duns because you can get a while foal. Because, obviously, you won't get a white foal from such a cross. Some people are prejudiced against the temperament of red duns, but that's all I can think of. Some people still refer to double dilutes as "whites" or "albinos", although many of us try to educate them. :) Sadly, the Norwegian Fjord Horse registry is not very... progressive in such matters. :roll:

tjuri
tjuri's picture
Offline
Last seen: 5 years 10 months ago
Joined: 07/12/09
Re: Fjords are....

I know this is an old threat but I think it would not make much sense to open a new one with the same topic? :roll:
Just my observations on Fjords in Germany:
I would agree that Dun + Pangare will lighten the coat much more than the coat of a dun QH is.
But there are lots of light duns in Germany that have light dapples too and are veeery light dun. My own horse had dapples as well.
You can see them when the horses change their coats and when they are sweaty. So what I assume is that many Fjords have Dun + Pangare + Cream. I could not explain the dapples in another way. Dun doesn't have dapples, so....DD + PaPa ( just my invention for now! :D ) would not throw dapples IMO???? :?:

For comparison: The old-type Haflinger is Chestnut + Pangare. They don't have dapples. The modern Haflinger with a lot of Arabian outcrossing carries Chestnut + Cream. They seldom have Pangare but they have dapples! ;)

These two breeds are as common over here as QH's in the US, I would like to hear your opinion and maybe you have made other observations in the USA? :?:

Morgan
Morgan's picture
Offline
Last seen: 6 years 3 weeks ago
Joined: 02/13/09
Re: Fjords are....

Has Hoofpick looked at Fjord hairs? are they normal?

Monsterpony
Monsterpony's picture
Offline
Last seen: 5 years 7 months ago
Joined: 02/13/09
Re: Fjords are....

I know this is an old threat but I think it would not make much sense to open a new one with the same topic? :roll:
Just my observations on Fjords in Germany:
I would agree that Dun + Pangare will lighten the coat much more than the coat of a dun QH is.
But there are lots of light duns in Germany that have light dapples too and are veeery light dun. My own horse had dapples as well.
You can see them when the horses change their coats and when they are sweaty. So what I assume is that many Fjords have Dun + Pangare + Cream. I could not explain the dapples in another way. Dun doesn't have dapples, so....DD + PaPa ( just my invention for now! :D ) would not throw dapples IMO???? :?:

For comparison: The old-type Haflinger is Chestnut + Pangare. They don't have dapples. The modern Haflinger with a lot of Arabian outcrossing carries Chestnut + Cream. They seldom have Pangare but they have dapples! ;)

These two breeds are as common over here as QH's in the US, I would like to hear your opinion and maybe you have made other observations in the USA? :?:

Actually, fjords with cream are not very common at all. The colors ulsblakk (bay + dun + cream or dunskin) and gulblakk (chestnut + dun + cream or dunalino) are the only two that show the cream gene. Grå with cream (black + dun + cream or smokey grullo) are generally indistinguishable from non-cream grå (black + dun or grullo) and are registered as the same. Kvits are double dilute creams and are unregisterable. 80% of fjords are brunblakk or bay dun.

.

tjuri
tjuri's picture
Offline
Last seen: 5 years 10 months ago
Joined: 07/12/09
Re: Fjords are....

Thanks, Monsterpony, but the other colors you mentioned are not the common ones I was referring to, they are very rare you are right. So my question is still the same, where do the dapples come from? :?: ;)
There are also differences in the shades: Most Fjords today are light-dun and are registered as such in their papers (in German: Hellbraun-Falb). Braun in German is Bay BTW. ;)

hoofpick
hoofpick's picture
Offline
Last seen: 2 years 8 months ago
Joined: 05/01/09
Re: Fjords are....

Nope not yet...anyone that could send me hair? :love

Pages