Fjords are....
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Re: Fjords are....
http://www.horse-genetics.com/Norwegian…" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
Looked interesting, but I don't know how correct it is.
[img]http://www1.american.edu/TED/images4/ye…]
[img]http://www1.american.edu/TED/images4/re…]
are those really a yellow and red dun?
Re: Fjords are....
Well, they are very typical for a fjord, but fjords are not typical for dun expression in the horse world.
[url=http://www.equine-color.info/index.php?… pic[/url] is a bay dun fjord (brunblakk) next to a bay dun QH. You can see that the fjord is definately not the same.
[url=http://www.equine-color.info/index.php?…] and [url=http://www.equine-color.info/index.php?…] are images of a dunskin fjord (uls). He was almost white.
Re: Fjords are....
I like the side by side at the bottom of this page. 8-)
None of them in expressions that you would see in many other breeds.
http://www.nfhr.org/index.php?option=co…" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
I agree with MP. Either homozygous dun is playing tricks on those coats, or.....
(there is something else going on)
My norwegian is rusty :laugh1 but under gulblakk (yellow dun) I understand that it is supposed to be the outcome of red dun. And I could swear they are mentioning albino there? :shock:
http://www.fjordhest.no/oafl/oafl_side…" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
That sentiment would line up with the statement I heard that you are not allowed to breed to red duns together because you will get a white foal (that will die) :? :o Frame in Fjords? Not likely. But where do these stories come from? :sad
Re: Fjords are....
Homozygous dun looks no different in other breeds and this is the same dun that those other breeds carry. I'm inclined to think it's something else. I think pangare' may be a large part of it. I also think their base colors are probably VERY light after having been selectively bred in that direction.
Re: Fjords are....
[quote="accphotography"]Homozygous dun looks no different in other breeds and this is the same dun that those other breeds carry. [/quote]
What inspires you to assume it is 'the same dun?' :? Just recently I thought I read a post from you, pondering the possibility of a non discovered dun version in reference to your own mare? :o So you must be open to the possibility that there may be more out there?
Re: Fjords are....
[quote="accphotography"]Because Horsegen said it WAS the same dun. ;)[/quote]
:laugh1 No...she said they were D(un) :rofl
[size=85]I am inclined to compare to black: non fading vs fading. No difference in the extention test. Lots of difference on the outside.[/size]
Re: Fjords are....
[quote="vneerland"]I like the side by side at the bottom of this page. 8-)
None of them in expressions that you would see in many other breeds.
http://www.nfhr.org/index.php?option=co…" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
I agree with MP. Either homozygous dun is playing tricks on those coats, or.....
(there is something else going on)
My norwegian is rusty :laugh1 but under gulblakk (yellow dun) I understand that it is supposed to be the outcome of red dun. And I could swear they are mentioning albino there? :shock:
http://www.fjordhest.no/oafl/oafl_side…" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
That sentiment would line up with the statement I heard that you are not allowed to breed to red duns together because you will get a white foal (that will die) :? :o Frame in Fjords? Not likely. But where do these stories come from? :sad[/quote]
They have their colors and terminology confused. What they are calling an albino (kvit) is a [cremello/perlino/smokey cream] dun. Breeding gulblakk (dunalino), ulsblakk (dunskin) or a grå (grullo if it happens to be carrying cream) together can get you a kvit (double dilute cream)
Re: Fjords are....
[quote="accphotography"]Homozygous dun looks no different in other breeds and this is the same dun that those other breeds carry. I'm inclined to think it's something else. I think pangare' may be a large part of it. I also think their base colors are probably VERY light after having been selectively bred in that direction.[/quote]
I'm in 99.9999% agreement with you ACC!! If you look at a lot of Fjords, the pangare is quite evident on their muzzles. I don't know that all Fjords have pangare, so don't know if they are all homozygous for it, but if they are, the double dose of pangare could potentially have an overall lightening effect on the coat. Then again, maybe it only takes one dose of it.
And it's also possible that they may naturally have paler base colors, too. Hard to say since I've only ever seen dun and dun/cream dilute Fjords. BTW, that was news to me that they can be Dd!! I wonder if they don't register those?
The one tiny place where I maybe sort of disagree is that DD duns look no different than Dd duns. And I only *maybe sort of" disagree, because it would be a harder one to study and prove. But at least one breeder of grullas has noticed that their grullas (both parents grulla) that proved to be DD via progeny (before there was the zygosity test) did seem to be lighter shades than their parents'.
But that could be tricky, because you cannot know what other genes the parents may have that are lightening or darkening their shades and what they did or did not pass on to that lighter shade offspring. And all kinds of other factors, of course. But, if there is anything to it, keep in mind that the lighter DD offspring aren't necessarily significantly lighter than their Dd parents. So take this with a grain of salt ... or a fairly large block of it. :D
But, I do agree with you that pangare could be playing a big role here, as I've noticed that myself, and commented on it before in other forums. The pangare can also lighten the lower legs. Since there are many (non-red based) Fjords that don't have solid leg points, we can see the lightened non-black hair on the backs of their legs fairly easily. And on red based Fjords, the paler lower legs are even more obvious, of course.
Re: Fjords are....
[quote="vneerland"]
My norwegian is rusty :laugh1 but under gulblakk (yellow dun) I understand that it is supposed to be the outcome of red dun. And I could swear they are mentioning albino there? :shock:
http://www.fjordhest.no/oafl/oafl_side…" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
That sentiment would line up with the statement I heard that you are not allowed to breed to red duns together because you will get a white foal (that will die) :? :o Frame in Fjords? Not likely. But where do these stories come from? :sad[/quote]
Actually, what it does say is that dunalino is a variant of red dun (I assume they mean that it is red based then), and that "to get this colour at least one of the parents must carry the albino gene" . Now there are still many myths about in the Fjord horse world, but I have never heard that you should not breed two red duns because you can get a while foal. Because, obviously, you won't get a white foal from such a cross. Some people are prejudiced against the temperament of red duns, but that's all I can think of. Some people still refer to double dilutes as "whites" or "albinos", although many of us try to educate them. :) Sadly, the Norwegian Fjord Horse registry is not very... progressive in such matters. :roll:
Re: Fjords are....
I know this is an old threat but I think it would not make much sense to open a new one with the same topic? :roll:
Just my observations on Fjords in Germany:
I would agree that Dun + Pangare will lighten the coat much more than the coat of a dun QH is.
But there are lots of light duns in Germany that have light dapples too and are veeery light dun. My own horse had dapples as well.
You can see them when the horses change their coats and when they are sweaty. So what I assume is that many Fjords have Dun + Pangare + Cream. I could not explain the dapples in another way. Dun doesn't have dapples, so....DD + PaPa ( just my invention for now! :D ) would not throw dapples IMO???? :?:
For comparison: The old-type Haflinger is Chestnut + Pangare. They don't have dapples. The modern Haflinger with a lot of Arabian outcrossing carries Chestnut + Cream. They seldom have Pangare but they have dapples! ;)
These two breeds are as common over here as QH's in the US, I would like to hear your opinion and maybe you have made other observations in the USA? :?:
Re: Fjords are....
[quote="tjuri"]I know this is an old threat but I think it would not make much sense to open a new one with the same topic? :roll:
Just my observations on Fjords in Germany:
I would agree that Dun + Pangare will lighten the coat much more than the coat of a dun QH is.
But there are lots of light duns in Germany that have light dapples too and are veeery light dun. My own horse had dapples as well.
You can see them when the horses change their coats and when they are sweaty. So what I assume is that many Fjords have Dun + Pangare + Cream. I could not explain the dapples in another way. Dun doesn't have dapples, so....DD + PaPa ( just my invention for now! :D ) would not throw dapples IMO???? :?:
For comparison: The old-type Haflinger is Chestnut + Pangare. They don't have dapples. The modern Haflinger with a lot of Arabian outcrossing carries Chestnut + Cream. They seldom have Pangare but they have dapples! ;)
These two breeds are as common over here as QH's in the US, I would like to hear your opinion and maybe you have made other observations in the USA? :?:[/quote]
Actually, fjords with cream are not very common at all. The colors ulsblakk (bay + dun + cream or dunskin) and gulblakk (chestnut + dun + cream or dunalino) are the only two that show the cream gene. Grå with cream (black + dun + cream or smokey grullo) are generally indistinguishable from non-cream grå (black + dun or grullo) and are registered as the same. Kvits are double dilute creams and are unregisterable. 80% of fjords are brunblakk or bay dun.
Re: Fjords are....
Thanks, Monsterpony, but the other colors you mentioned are not the common ones I was referring to, they are very rare you are right. So my question is still the same, where do the dapples come from? :?: ;)
There are also differences in the shades: Most Fjords today are light-dun and are registered as such in their papers (in German: Hellbraun-Falb). Braun in German is Bay BTW. ;)
Re: Fjords are....
Grey = grullo (smokey grullo)
Uls = dunskin/buckskin dun
Brown = bay dun
Red = red Dun
Yellow = dunalino/palomino dun
Kvit = cremello/perlino/smokey cream