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color mystery

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colorfan
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color mystery
With all the blood typing that has unraveled many color mysteries I am wondering what you would think is still the biggest color mystery?
Jenks
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Re: color mystery

Hm.

Threnody
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Re: color mystery

Personally I think Flaxen.

Its not just that we haven't found the gene for it. We just can't even explain its pattern of inheritance.

According to all the research done on it, flaxen doesn't follow simple dominant or recessive inheritance. The trend is that chestnuts produce more chestnuts, flaxens produce more flaxens, and when bred together the offspring inheritance of it is about 50 50.

The issue with this is that if it was a simple recessive, chestnuts theoretically carrying a recessive flaxen allele could produce a flaxen, but they don't. And if flaxen was dominant, 2 heterozygous flaxen carriers could eventually produce a chestnut. The morgan study with hundreds of flaxen and chestnut horses never showed either of these trends. Its kind of baffling and assumed polygenic at this point.

Thanks for the fun question ^_^

accphotography
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Re: color mystery

Mushroom.

That and the new dilution:
http://www.newdilutions.com/other/other.htm" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Also whatever is causing this (if it's even a mutation and not just an anomaly):
http://platinumstallion.com/walking_left..." onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

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Threnody
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Re: color mystery

ACC you just reminded me. I want to know what the Hanoverian Royal Creams were!

http://www.newdilutions.com/RHC/index.htm" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

I know they are extinct as a breed, but it would be interesting to see what they were, either known dilution(s), or a mutation lost from the gene-pool forever.

rabbitsfizz
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Re: color mystery

Pretty sure they were Champagne + Cream.

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accphotography
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Re: color mystery

They shouldn't breed true if so.

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Threnody
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Re: color mystery

They shouldn't breed true if so.

^ I agree. That is the biggest hang up people researching the creams have when comparing it to known dilutions. They were homozygous for something which caused them to be inbred to death.

Too light for just Champagne and the skin was clear pink according to pictures and descriptions.
Too dark for Double Cream.
Cream Pearl wouldn't breed true.
Double pearl doesn't make light eyes.
Silver mixed with anything wouldn't allow the manes and tails to be so dark.

Its a conundrum.

Danni
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Re: color mystery

Mushroom.

That and the new dilution:
http://www.newdilutions.com/other/other.htm" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Also whatever is causing this (if it's even a mutation and not just an anomaly):
http://platinumstallion.com/walking_left..." onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Oh yes the first two!
I don't find the platinum stallion so unusual considering all the light manes and tails on some of the draft bred horses. But I guess it would be interesting to know if it was the same gene. I would have thought it was all another 'sabino'. Or KIT mutation.

accphotography
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Re: color mystery

But most of those tails are either yellowish or really silvery, his is much closer to white. Also most fade with age and his hasn't so far. Not only that, but his mane is the same.

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Danni
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Re: color mystery

Some of them get almost whitish too, Also that platimum horse has a dark forelock in that picture at least? I though his mane was more a mixture of black and white? Mind you it's always pulled so I haven't seen it that clearly.

accphotography
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Re: color mystery

Well it's darker at the roots. I imagine it'd be as light as his tail if allowed to grow out.

http://platinumstallion.com/dancerLOPEsh..." onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

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colorfan
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Re: color mystery

ooo, lots to research now. what is mushroom.

flaxen is a pretty puzzle, :rofl :rofl

wish I understood genetics better so understand what you said about flaxen.

When I ride I feel His pleasure.

colorfan
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Re: color mystery

Why is the stallion with the white tail weird? If no one said anything I would have just thought that since he is a black n white splash it is just part of his pattern.

When I ride I feel His pleasure.

lillith
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Re: color mystery

Not exactly a mystery but I am still itching to have nailed down all the 'sabino'/'splash' bits and pieces so that any horse can have a parcel of tests run and we know exactly what is causing the interesting white affects.

Also sooty....for starters it eaumelanin production in ee horses who should only be producing phaemelanin (now for someone to tell me my aged memory is failing and I spelt the melanins wrong :P)

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TheRedHayflinger
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Re: color mystery

That and the new dilution:
http://www.newdilutions.com/other/other.htm" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

oooh..there are two of 'em....I remember when the 2nd one was posted on here not long ago.

Threnody
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Re: color mystery

Eumelanin, close don't worry ^_^

I agree about the sabino/splash. I'm wondering if anyone here knows of any places researching it?
I would think that Icelandics would be a good population to study since they do not appear to have sabino to skew results. The only other white patterns I know of that they have are tobiano and roan.

I think the tobiano test works for them because it is a direct test. But I don't think the roan test works for them because it is indirect and Iceys don't share the same markers as the stock horses the test was developed from.

It would be neat to finally have a splash test. But I do suspect there may be more than one splash mutation.

accphotography
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Re: color mystery

ooo, lots to research now. what is mushroom.

http://www.kellas-stud.co.uk/mystery.htm" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Why is the stallion with the white tail weird? If no one said anything I would have just thought that since he is a black n white splash it is just part of his pattern.

Because it's not white, it's silver. No white marking or pink skin touches anywhere near or on his tail, and hsi mane is the same way.

I agree about the sabino/splash. I'm wondering if anyone here knows of any places researching it?
I would think that Icelandics would be a good population to study since they do not appear to have sabino to skew results. The only other white patterns I know of that they have are tobiano and roan.

It would be neat to finally have a splash test. But I do suspect there may be more than one splash mutation.

Yes, Cornell is. They're actually using QH/PHs last I heard unless they've expanded.

Sadly there is no real proof that Icelandics don't have sabino.

Splash behaves too similarly among the breeds for me to think there are multiple mutations. Also if it's not a KIT mutation (which they don't *think* it is) it's not that likely to have multiple occurrences IMO.

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Threnody
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Re: color mystery

Yes, Cornell is. They're actually using QH/PHs last I heard unless they've expanded.

Sadly there is no real proof that Icelandics don't have sabino.

Splash behaves too similarly among the breeds for me to think there are multiple mutations. Also if it's not a KIT mutation (which they don't *think* it is) it's not that likely to have multiple occurrences IMO.

They really have their work cut out for them trying to pin it down. True about the lack of other mutations if its not on KIT part.

rabbitsfizz
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Re: color mystery

The whole point was that the Creams did not breed true, hence the need to inbreed them!
Pretty sure it was Champagne/Pearl + Cream.....

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Threnody
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Re: color mystery

Just wait, the mystery dilution making those double dilute buckskins ends up being the Royal Cream dilute when homozygous :lol:

I don't really think that, but it would be very cool if it was. I'm guessing it's likely another cream-activated recessive dilution.

Arabica
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Re: color mystery

I would sure like to know what's going on with the light black horses.

JNFerrigno
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Re: color mystery

Yeah that dilution in the arab line, asap please LOL.

I haven't refreshed my memory on the royal creams, I think I red that page over a few months ago just to see if there were any updates. But why couldn't they be Champagne/Cream, which is what I thought to begin with. Maybe even some pearl. But I don't seem to remember there being any proof these horses bred true to color. Just that there were photos of horses of the same shade range standing next to one another, but I may seem to recall a statement taken out of a book of some one making an observation on breeding true? But there's no foal images, and who's to say they didn't just remove non-colored foals when able? I mean it's like the old palomino breeding programs, you see tons of palomino out put, but you rarely if ever found photographs of the cremello and chestnut breeding stock used behind the scenes. >_> did that make sense or do I need to go to bed?

tjuri
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Re: color mystery

Actually I grew up near Hannover, where the Hannoverian Whiteborn Horses once were bred. Those horses were not creamy in color but mostly all white. I have seen paintings in their museum and have read descriptions of the stallmaster: Yellow hooves, yellow or pink skin on the noses, white tail and mane - some had yellowish mane and tail.
They used for breeding EVERY baroque breed that had whiteborn offspring, so whiteborn Frederiksburger, Spanish, Oldenburg, Kladruby... you get the picture. Since they did not know color-genetics at that time they called them Albinos. Most had light blue eyes.

Some of their horses were sent to England as a gift and those are the photos you see on that link standing in their stalls. It might be that they sent the cream colored horses and retained the whites in Hannover. Or maybe the creams were selected by the monarchy in England because they prefered that shade. The breeding program in England was based on the Hannoverian Whiteborns but was a different program later on.

If you consider that they had embryonic lethals in Hannover, stillborn foals, foals who only survived some days, I would imagine that they might have had a weird mix of white patterns like LP, frame, sabino, splash and maybe even DW in the breeding-stock. Add the inbreeding factor and you have sterile mares and stallions too.

rabbitsfizz
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Re: color mystery

They were sent over to pull the Coronation Coach of George the III, in 1782, so it was some time back!!
They were then bred here, and were called, for some reason The Windsor Greys, form which I surmise they were pretty well white in colour. Any photographs of horses in stalls must be recent newcomers, who would probably be Cremello/ Perlino.
I am guessing these horses were (is this right?) Ivory? Cream + Champagne.
They were not popular, even though they pulled the coach. I think it was the eyes!
The stud was eventually broken up and the horses sold off. I have no idea if they were related to the Cream ponies that pulled Queen Victorias children's various carts at London and on the Isle of Wight. She donated some to London Zoo and they were still at Whipsnade Zoo around twenty years ago, as they were interbreeding with the Prjwalsky's horses, which did not please the curator at all!!

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Threnody
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Re: color mystery

The Windsor Greys are actually gray though. The Creams were replaced by them.

Most research I've seen states that what we know as Champagne is a mutation that originated in the Americas, like Frame and Dominant Curly. So personally I doubt the Creams were champagne as we know it.

If I had to go with the Creams being a known dilution the most likely one would be Cream-Pearl.

This website has a picture of Sir Garrard supposedly riding a Royal Cream stallion in a civic parade. However I don't know the reliability of the source.

Website: http://regencyredingote.wordpress.com/20..." onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
The Picture: http://catalogue.magnoliasoft.net/i/kent..." onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

The horse in the picture looks like a double cream.

tjuri
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Re: color mystery

Here are 3 scans out of my books, showing Hannoverian White stallions:

Threnody
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Re: color mystery

Wow nice pictures! Thanks for sharing them ^_^

I'm curious now to know if the Hanoverian Creams and White Hanoverians were the same thing or something different from each other. There are definite variances in appearance between all the pictures and animals shown so far.

Daylene Alford
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Re: color mystery

The one in the middle with the spot of the color over his eye... That looks like a possible DW to me....

rabbitsfizz
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Re: color mystery

Threnody, the Creams were the original "Greys".
After the stud was dispersed, grey horses od any breed, traditionally replaced them. But the white "Creams" were the original Windsor Greys.

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accphotography
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Re: color mystery

Is that a chestnut spot or just pink skin? I'd thought it was pink skin.

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