Brown and Bay again
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Re: Brown and Bay again
I found these two of her as a yearling. Not very good pics though. I guess why I think of her as a bay is, even though dark she's still kind of reddish??
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Re: Brown and Bay again
Oh, I am sooooo with Danni here. I thought I knew the difference between bay & brown, but now I haven't a clue.
Are we saying seal is brown???? I call seal a near black horse with brown/tan around the muzzle/flanks.
How do we tell a dark bay from a light brown????
:BH
Re: Brown and Bay again
[quote="thorwood"]Oh, I am sooooo with Danni here. I thought I knew the difference between bay & brown, but now I haven't a clue.
Are we saying seal is brown???? I call seal a near black horse with brown/tan around the muzzle/flanks.
How do we tell a dark bay from a light brown????
:BH[/quote]
ditto!
Re: Brown and Bay again
[quote="thorwood"]
[b]Are we saying seal is brown???? I call seal a near black horse with brown/tan around the muzzle/flanks.[/b]
[i]How do we tell a dark bay from a light brown???? [/i]
:BH[/quote]
[b]Yes.[/b]
[i]THAT is where the guesswork comes in and why I'd love to see more of these "borderline" horses tested.[/i]
Re: Brown and Bay again
Ok I promise I'll test mine, I'll do the buckskin shettie mare too as I think she's also borderline case. She probably even more likey to be a brown as she has the dark eye goggles. Both are fairly typical for most of the bay (or bay base) shetlands I see, neither a obvious clean red bay, or the obvious seal brown. So I'm curious myself. Fingers crossed they are bay not brown!!
Re: Brown and Bay again
Tested for what???
I thought all seal horses tested positive for agouti???
I thought the test for brown was not exactly universally accepted!!!
Danni's pony doesn't look seal to me, you can see it's points. It looks like a dark bay, lol, whatever that may be.
It seems there isn't even any agreement on what the phenotype of dark bay, brown, seal actually is.
LOL, any wonder I am confused.
Mind you, not that I really care, as seal/bay/brown are not really colours I select for, I don't care which one I get.
None of my seals ever look bay, they look like black horses with with a bit of tan around the edges.
So what do you call this filly????
Baby photo, just born.
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Yearling fluff
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Summer coat
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Re: Brown and Bay again
Well I think she looks more brown than my pony? I'd call her a brown??
I'd only like my pony to test as a bay rather than brown as I love the colour of a good red bay with their black points. There isn't too many of them in the shettie world, and it would be cool if I bred one. But if she's brown I know I won't get it!! I didn't breed her for that, I like her as a pony, I would just be nice to get a red bay one day. If that makes sense!!
Re: Brown and Bay again
Yes, Danni, I agree, I would call mine brown to look at, but not seal!!! Hmm, I think she is registered as bay/brown.
Um ACC, not sure what you mean.
brown, bay, seal, dark bay, whatever you like to call them are all going to test positive for agouti, & are really all variations of bay as far as we know, where as the colours you mention
involve another gene.
Can someone explain in plain english what the difference between bay & brown is???
Re: Brown and Bay again
You completely missed my point. The colors I mentioned WERE all the same gene, people just didn't know that until the test came out. They were called black, or liver chestnut because that's exactly how they looked... but they test palomino. People had to broaden their minds as to what a palomino could look like.
No, they don't test positive for agouti per se. They test to have one or no copies of recessive agouti. Aka we don't really have a test for agouti at all. There is no agouti mutation identified. I doubt much research has been done as people have been ok to just be able to say "we know it's not black so it's some type of agouti", but that doesn't necessarily make it bay. This doctor has found an agouti mutation that causes a brown to seal phenotype.
The difference is the genotype (and of course a resulting phenotype, which people have become completely numb to IMO).
Re: Brown and Bay again
Yes, I hear what you are saying, but now we have tests for all those that you mention, so we can say a horse is chestnut or it is black or it is palomino.
There is no such certainty or agreement with bay/brown/seal. We can't even agree on this forum what they look like.
So we have a test for A or a, though you say we don't even have an agouti mutation identified.
Sorry, but isn't it a bit contradictory to say someone has found an agouti mutation that causes seal/brown when you just said there is no agouti mutation identified.
Like I said, :BH
Re: Brown and Bay again
[quote="thorwood"]Yes, I hear what you are saying, but now we have tests for all those that you mention, so we can say a horse is chestnut or it is black or it is palomino.
There is no such certainty or agreement with bay/brown/seal. We can't even agree on this forum what they look like.
So we have a test for A or a, though you say we don't even have an agouti mutation identified.
Sorry, but isn't it a bit contradictory to say someone has found an agouti mutation that causes seal/brown when you just said there is no agouti mutation identified.
Like I said, :BH[/quote]
Yes. My point is what people didn't know ____ was palomino before the test just like some people say _____ horse is bay... until it's tested for brown. :smile:
When I said there was no agouti mutation identified yet I was excluding Dr. Michal's test as that was the standing before that test came out. I was jut trying to make the point that just because a horse tests 'A_' somewhere doesn't necessarily mean it's really bay, it solely means it's not black.
Re: Brown and Bay again
I find it all confusing too.
Rosie my 19yr old mini (part bred fallabella and shettie) is what I would have always called a dark bay but here she might be called Seal??
Last yr summer coat
[img]http://i156.photobucket.com/albums/t35/…]
[img]http://i156.photobucket.com/albums/t35/…]
Winter coat
[img]http://i156.photobucket.com/albums/t35/…]
Re: Brown and Bay again
ACC, have just read the article in the Paint Journal which has plenty of quotes from Michael Prochazka, most of the horses pictured are not the typical seal ie black with tan muzzle/flanks, they are to the eye brown, & not even close to looking black.
He says that one of the main reasons for testing for At, is that brown is often mistakenly identified as liver chestnut or smoky black.
Hmmm, I have bred lots of foals, can't say I have ever mistaken a brown foal for a chestnut or a smoky black, not even close.
The article talks about how amazing it is to know a horse is brown, lol, when the horses in the photos are very obviously brown. Like hello, sorry, I could tell that without spending $40 on a test. Though of course, there are horses where it is hard to determine whether they are bay or brown.
It also says that brown horses are usually born with dark legs while bay horses are born with light legs. Can't say I have found that either.
All of my brown foals have looked bay at birth, though it is hard to explain, they are a richer shade than a typical bay foal, but that is hardly scientific, just my observation.
I am not doubting his research, would just like to see some information on his site about what his research found.
I would like to see pictures of the horses he tested & what their results were.
Re: Brown and Bay again
[quote="thorwood"]
I would like to see pictures of the horses he tested & what their results were.[/quote]
Heres a collection of photos with At horses that have been tested
http://www.tdmequinedesign.com/Expressi…" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
Re: Brown and Bay again
Oh this is her as a foal too
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