Coat Colors and Domestication
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Re: Coat Colors and Domestication
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There were some pretty nifty figures in the supplemental info--worth looking up
Re: Coat Colors and Domestication
I read that the tame behavior was related to differing pigment cell migrations in the nervous system. Like... to have gotten the tame fox they selected for an animal that genetically had off pigment cells and as they continued the selection, the pigment cell anomalies showed up in the body. The other interesting things they got were floppy ears and curved tails...neither of which horses really have.
Re: Coat Colors and Domestication
African Wild Dogs are not true Dogs....as far as I am aware they are not Lupus or Canis.
But the theory still holds true, except that in their case and in the case of a number of wild, African animals, the white "spotting" is part of the camouflage.
The Foxes would not survive in the wild with either the tame attitude or the white spotting, so although it is strange that the two seem to be related it is not that strange.
I am pretty sure that what they stumbled on is a "domestication" gene!
Cattle, Sheep, Pigs etc are domestic [i]livestock[/i] and their level of domestication is actually very low. They have been changed physically far more than mentally.
Dogs and Cats, however are completely domesticated, which is why it is so potentially stupid to cross Dogs with Wolves (you get a very big, very powerful animal with no in built fear or respect for humans)
In order to get from Wolves to Dogs , even given the time we have had to do so, it took some sort of mutated genetic that predisposed the animals to being more than merely helpful with a hunt in return for food....Dingoes did that and I really do not suggest anyone try to keep a Dingo in a house.....
Re: Coat Colors and Domestication
Did it mention anything about Grey? So many of your historic tales talk about white horses, now whether or not they are cream, dominate white, or grey I do not know. But I wonder if one of the reasons for so many of the worlds horses being grey is directly related to peoples desire for them in the past. Basically finding that mutation,worshiping it, breeding it for royalty, and so forth.
Has any study actually been done on the relation between behavior and color? I know there are generations of breeder observations, but I wasn't sure if anyone followed up with science. It would be interesting to see if loud white patterned horses mimic the findings in foxes. Some of the most docile horses I've come across are spotted and leopard patterns. Then again how much of that behavior was hand selected for in horses in the first place.
Re: Coat Colors and Domestication
[quote="JNFerrigno"]
Has any study actually been done on the relation between behavior and color? I know there are generations of breeder observations, but I wasn't sure if anyone followed up with science. It would be interesting to see if loud white patterned horses mimic the findings in foxes. Some of the most docile horses I've come across are spotted and leopard patterns. Then again how much of that behavior was hand selected for in horses in the first place.[/quote]
that sounds totally interesting. I will agree with you on most of the docile horses I've known have had some sort of white LP or pinto pattern. Even my big belgian mare with a ton of white I had at one point who reallllllly didn't want to be a riding horse was never mean about showing that to me (she got her wish and was sold to a gentleman who wanted a horse to hitch and drive...she didn't mind that!)
Re: Coat Colors and Domestication
[quote="TheRedHayflinger"]that sounds totally interesting. I will agree with you on most of the docile horses I've known have had some sort of white LP or pinto pattern. Even my big belgian mare with a ton of white I had at one point who reallllllly didn't want to be a riding horse was never mean about showing that to me (she got her wish and was sold to a gentleman who wanted a horse to hitch and drive...she didn't mind that!)[/quote]
A lot of what I heard was just word of mouth old cracker lore. But if my humanities class taught me anything, it's that behind every fable there's a sprinkle of truth.
Re: Coat Colors and Domestication
[quote="Jenks"]MP (I think it was MP) says something very similar. There is no reason why everything and anything could not be linked until proven otherwise....[/quote]
Oh a similar note about color linkage, wasn't there a study done comparing the amounts of white on a horse and their base color? Or was that more of the breeder lore? Some times I get the two mixed up, because lets face it breeders are at the front of the genetic army, and they are the ones that come up with these theories first, and then like 10 years down the road some one decides to look into it.
Re: Coat Colors and Domestication
[quote="TheRedHayflinger"][quote="Jenks"]MP (I think it was MP) says something very similar. There is no reason why everything and anything could not be linked until proven otherwise....[/quote]
would love to hear more on this. :D[/quote]
I can't remember what we were discussing - was it the whorl theory? The more whorls, the more spirited? But she was just saying that everything *could* be linked - physical traits with disposition. After all, white (when LWO) and an incomplete intestinal tract (physical trait) are together.....so. I think she had a better example....
Re: Coat Colors and Domestication
[quote="Jenks"][quote="TheRedHayflinger"][quote="Jenks"]MP (I think it was MP) says something very similar. There is no reason why everything and anything could not be linked until proven otherwise....[/quote]
would love to hear more on this. :D[/quote]
I can't remember what we were discussing - was it the whorl theory? The more whorls, the more spirited? But she was just saying that everything *could* be linked - physical traits with disposition. After all, white (when LWO) and an incomplete intestinal tract (physical trait) are together.....so. I think she had a better example....[/quote]
My bendy little pinto pony has 8 or 9 whorls on her head...LOL
Re: Coat Colors and Domestication
Really? Is that a world record? LOL My ahem, *spirited* arabian mare has a double forehead whorl that go in opposite directions and it was supposed to mean extreme spirit...and that is true in her case, then she's got another - gosh now I can't remember, but also on her forehead.
Re: Coat Colors and Domestication
my haflinger has swirls on her cheeks...don't know what that means. I'll try to go out and get a picture soon. What am I saying...they are 30 yards from my back door...I'll go see if she is in a good mood then..haha. Gypsy's multitude of head swirls are hard to get a pic of, but I'll try. My vet even helped me count them one day..LOL
Re: Coat Colors and Domestication
[quote="Jenks"]Really? Is that a world record? LOL My ahem, *spirited* arabian mare has a double forehead whorl that go in opposite directions and it was supposed to mean extreme spirit...and that is true in her case, then she's got another - gosh now I can't remember, but also on her forehead.[/quote]
She secretly sprouts horns at night when you are sleeping.
Re: Coat Colors and Domestication
I did my BSc dissertation on a study I did on the connection between tractability and temperament, and the chestnut colour in horses. The only significant difference I found was that chestnut horses were more difficult to clip (in their owner's opinion), there was no significant difference in other things (like loading, transporting, saddling, grooming, herd dominance etc.) between black based and chestnut based colours.
I did only get 54% final mark for it though so the whole thing is probably pretty much rubbish :-/
Re: Coat Colors and Domestication
[quote="Dogrose"]I did my BSc dissertation on a study I did on the connection between tractability and temperament, and the chestnut colour in horses. The only significant difference I found was that chestnut horses were more difficult to clip (in their owner's opinion), there was no significant difference in other things (like loading, transporting, saddling, grooming, herd dominance etc.) between black based and chestnut based colours.
I did only get 54% final mark for it though so the whole thing is probably pretty much rubbish :-/[/quote]
See, thats what you get for trying something new. At least you tried!
Re: Coat Colors and Domestication
[quote="JNFerrigno"][quote="Jenks"]Really? Is that a world record? LOL My ahem, *spirited* arabian mare has a double forehead whorl that go in opposite directions and it was supposed to mean extreme spirit...and that is true in her case, then she's got another - gosh now I can't remember, but also on her forehead.[/quote]
She secretly sprouts horns at night when you are sleeping.[/quote]
Now we're talking! LOL She is super sweet like an angel (dripping cheese here, yes) and then she'll suddenly bolt. I know she's got them in there.....she can't hide em all the time! I think actually that she's super sensitive, and super smart, just not the right horse for everyone.
Re: Coat Colors and Domestication
[quote="TheRedHayflinger"][quote="Jenks"]MP (I think it was MP) says something very similar. There is no reason why everything and anything could not be linked until proven otherwise....[/quote]
would love to hear more on this. :D[/quote]
For me, I just try to keep an open mind. They still haven't figured out why silver horses have MCOA (especially those that are red-based so don't express their silver), but I have seen it in every single silver (or carrier) horse I have examined has evidence of it. The folklore is out there for a reason. Some of it has been proven bunk (white hooves are weaker than black), but who can really say for everything. Outside of the horse world, a documentary was filmed on identical twins that were separated at birth, but reunited later in life. Those twins were found to be [i]much[/i] more alike than those raised together, down to the way they stand, how they gesture, how they speak, what they like to do, etc. It seemed that identical twins worked to [i]not[/i] be so similar to each other so they could be seen as an individual. It really is a fight between genetics and environment.
Re: Coat Colors and Domestication
Grey seems to be the one unproven "colour" in horses that seems the most likely to have actually happened.
I can ignore the Appy claims (although it would be absolutely great if the rather "out there" theory that they were indigenous were to be true, even if it were there is so little original Appy blood in modern Appies as to make it negligible) and I very much doubt that parti colours existed, as there just isn't anything to suggest that they did (weird the way every "mongrel" reverts to parti colours, though) so Black and Bay + Dun seem to be the most likely bases, and, in either case, there is no reason why a Grey modifier should cause the same "trouble" as, for example, Cream. A Cream foal is born sticking out like a sore thumb, a Grey foal is born (usually) the colour of it's parents and then the Grey creeps up on you.
By the time you realise Charley is a weird colour he's been around so long no one can be bothered to get upset by him.
So, I can see Grey creeping in and being accepted.
Even if there is no proof for it....
Re: Coat Colors and Domestication
[quote="Monsterpony"]Those twins were found to be [i]much[/i] more alike than those raised together, down to the way they stand, how they gesture, how they speak, what they like to do, etc. It seemed that identical twins worked to [i]not[/i] be so similar to each other so they could be seen as an individual. It really is a fight between genetics and environment.[/quote]
I think I've seen the same documentary, or a similar one, because I think it explored a couple different sets of twins. But it is interesting.
rabbitsfizz: I think you just went way over my head. Whats this now with the appy thing? And what proof would you want of grey? Are we talking like, testing of old samples, cave drawings, or other historic evidence?
On the other note, sorry for being slow LOL it just clicked. Can anyone pin point the earliest known 'parti-colored' horse? If domestication in fox and other animals brought out colors that would stand out more in the wild, I wonder when horses started to mutate following that trend?
Re: Coat Colors and Domestication
Gypsy headswirl pics were a fail. But I did get a couple of clear ones of Sadies right cheek swirl (the one on her left is just like it..same placement too)
gah..one was too big and I closed out the program...so...
[img]http://i84.photobucket.com/albums/k8/Po…]
awwww..can see her cute little dishyface here. lol
Re: Coat Colors and Domestication
Very interesting.