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Appy genetics question...

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accphotography
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Appy genetics question...
Someone on another forum had twins born today. They're both appy, but they're totally different. The dam doesn't appear to have LP at all and I'm not sure she even has any app blood (she's Bashkir as is the stallion). The stallion is leopard or near leopard I think. Dam (gray and I can find no evidence of LP): [ximg]http://www.curlyfarm.com/es/ebcollage.jpg[/img] Sire: [ximg]http://www.curlyfarm.com/photos/rusty_proofs/images/AAAK-11.jpg[/img] Foals: [ximg]http://sphotos.ak.fbcdn.net/hphotos-ak-snc3/hs596.snc3/31393_13017439049... [ximg]http://sphotos.ak.fbcdn.net/hphotos-ak-ash1/hs536.ash1/31393_13017440649... I have no idea what else the sire or dam have produced. I was just a bit surprised to see such extreme variance in patterns in twins (obviously not identical so that part doesn't surprise me). So does the dam carry the blanket pattern without LP or does the sire carry both or??
Danni
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Re: Appy genetics question...

I know nothing about appy genetics, but the first foal's colour is awesome!!

Interesting to see such a difference in pattern too.

lipigirl
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Re: Appy genetics question...

Also looks IMO that the blanket spot will follow dam and grey out and the other ???

TheRedHayflinger
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Re: Appy genetics question...

Sawyer Creek Appaloosas (they are a foalcam I watch that isn't on marestare and they have no desire to be) had twin appys born earlier this year. The filly appears to be a solid (she might have characteristics though, unsure) and the colt is a fewspot

http://www.sawyercreek.com/Twinsday2redu..." onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
http://upload.myhorses.ca/files/12686896..." onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Can't get much more different than that...LOL

found the parents:

sire is Phenomenal, the first stallion listed here:
http://www.sawyercreek.com/page1.htm" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

mare is Pickadilly Lily, last mare pictured before you get to where it says Two Year Olds
http://www.sawyercreek.com/page2.htm" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Pickles was a maiden mare. And I believe this was Phenomenals first foal crop. He sired 2 or three other foals out of their mares this year.

rabbitsfizz
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Re: Appy genetics question...

I think it is only because they are Twins that you are surprised.
If the same mare foaled these foals a year apart, I doubt it would get a mention!
There is no reason why the stallion cannot have Blanket and Leopard patterns, like Pinto it is not limited to one!
He could have Leopard, Blanket and Varnish + Snowflake thrown in for luck!!!
A friends mare has Leopard and Blanket, and the Blanket is actually visible right after she has been clipped, especially if, as she did, you use the surgical blades by mistake (!) been there, done that, lost all the spots on my Palomino base Near Leopard for a week!!!!

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AppyLady
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Re: Appy genetics question...

Those curlies are really interesting! Love that leopard colt -- it sure would be a shame if he turns grey, but he most likely will. The other foal is obviously grey.

It's not unusual at all for twins to be as different as night and day. It's probably more unusual when they have the same pattern! You'd have to know the mare's background to know if she had any pattern genes to contribute, but both patterns could certainly have come from the sire. Leopard will "cover up" the blanket pattern and you can't tell it's there. Although sabino + LP can produce a small blanket over the hips like that one.

I read somewhere that Appaloosas seem to have healthy twins more often than other breeds, but I don't know if it's true. I've never had twins in 30+ years of breeding Appaloosas.

accphotography
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Re: Appy genetics question...

Actually, it's not the twin thing that surprises me. It's the FULL siblings having such hugely differing patterns. Based on my understanding of the genetics this seems very strange to me.

IMAGE(http://i173.photobucket.com/albums/w65/accphotography/Misc/Sig.png) IMAGE(http://phrf.pitapata.com/uno2m5.png)

pablo
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Re: Appy genetics question...

Hi I am just wondering why you think the leopard will most definately go grey ??Is it just because of the dams colour or do you see something else?

lipigirl
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Re: Appy genetics question...

No, I think the general consensus is that the Leopard spot may go grey but the blanket spot is definitely going to go grey - if you look at the googles around it's eyes this is a classic indicator of grey and is often the first place on a lot of grey foals to start greying.

AppyLady
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Re: Appy genetics question...

Lipi is right -- the blanket foal is definitely going to grey, and the leopard foal might. The elongated spots are often a sign of grey. I can't tell if he has goggles around his eyes or not; if so, then he is definitely going to grey.

I've had FULL SIBLINGS that were black leopard, solid black, solid bay, bay with small blanket, and sorrel with small blanket. That's actually quite normal with Appaloosas! After the first black leopard from that particular cross (two bay leopards), it was almost 10 years before I got another black leopard. Most of the foals were solid bays. Never did get a bay leopard, oddly enough.

NZ Appaloosas
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Re: Appy genetics question...

The thing is what people call "Patn" is appearing to be the result of multiple genes...and even if Patn1 exists as a single gene, there's probably nothing that stops multiple Patn genes from adding up and creating a look of Patn1...we already know that there are some sires out there that can "outproduce" the amount of white shown by either parent, but whether there are suppressors or enhancers going on is probably going to take a lot more time to find out.

Diane

AppyLady
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Re: Appy genetics question...

Right, "patn" is just shorthand for pattern. There are most likely many many pattern helping genes. Even sabino is considered a pattern helper. They tend to be cumulative -- the more pattern helping genes the horse has, the higher the level of expression. That's probably where the big spotted blankets come from -- not from a single gene (which some people are calling Patn2, but which hasn't been proven to exist).

It can often be very difficult to tell a large spotted blanket (no Patn1) from a minimal expression of the Patn1 gene. There are clues, but at this point, no way to prove with any certainty.

pablo
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Re: Appy genetics question...

Sues boy has quite elongated spots if I remember rightly!!They look very dramatic!!I read on an appy website that sometimes people mistake the roaning goggles for the greying goggles on appys!!I know that isn't the case here as they do have a grey parent!!But do foals with a grey parent always grey out??

lipigirl
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Re: Appy genetics question...

Sues boy has quite elongated spots if I remember rightly!!They look very dramatic!!I read on an appy website that sometimes people mistake the roaning goggles for the greying goggles on appys!!I know that isn't the case here as they do have a grey parent!!But do foals with a grey parent always grey out??

In an answer no they don't....fortunately !

rabbitsfizz
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Re: Appy genetics question...

No, Grey gives a 50/50% chance in h/Z of Greying, but this is exactly why most Appy breeders will not tolerate Grey or Roan in their breeding programme.
The "rain splash" markings, and that deep, concentrated depth of colour are absolutely classic Grey on Appy.
So two Grey foals....what a waste!

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pablo
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Re: Appy genetics question...

Thank you for answering my qustions !!I hope I don't sound silly !!I have owned an appy stallion since 2007 and he is getting more spots every year !!I might ask sue to post a pic of him for me !!When he was a yearling he has very dark silver/grey shading on his neck ,head and legs but now it is whitening and being replaced by more spots!! :flower

lipigirl
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Re: Appy genetics question...

Pablo, no question is stupid, we have all learned on this site and continue to learn every day.

We'd love to see pics of your appy stallion, sounds like he is what some people call a near leopard starting out looking quite solid but then losing the dark base colour until a leopard spot is revealed underneath.

pablo
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Re: Appy genetics question...

Well he was born spotted but on his head and legs the spots seemed to peep out of the shading!!His spots at birth were brown but later turned to black!!

accphotography
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Re: Appy genetics question...

The sire of those twins just had another foal born. Dark bay with a perfect blanket. He's got 4 on the ground now but I don't know what color the first was. The dam of the new blanket foal was solid IINM. So he's 4 for 4 with LP and PATN_... so I'm thinking he's LPlp (and they've just been lucky so far) and PATN1PATN2. That would make sense based on current theories wouldn't it?

Oh and the leopard foal is definitely graying IMO if for no other reason than the BLACKness of his spots.

IMAGE(http://i173.photobucket.com/albums/w65/accphotography/Misc/Sig.png) IMAGE(http://phrf.pitapata.com/uno2m5.png)

NZ Appaloosas
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Re: Appy genetics question...

Pablo, no question is stupid, we have all learned on this site and continue to learn every day.

We'd love to see pics of your appy stallion, sounds like he is what some people call a near leopard starting out looking quite solid but then losing the dark base colour until a leopard spot is revealed underneath.

that would be a false leopard--roaning out. A near leopard is born with dark head/partially dark neck and the rest spotted...too much to be called blanket, not enough to be called leopard.

Diane

lipigirl
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Re: Appy genetics question...
Pablo, no question is stupid, we have all learned on this site and continue to learn every day.

We'd love to see pics of your appy stallion, sounds like he is what some people call a near leopard starting out looking quite solid but then losing the dark base colour until a leopard spot is revealed underneath.

that would be a false leopard--roaning out. A near leopard is born with dark head/partially dark neck and the rest spotted...too much to be called blanket, not enough to be called leopard.

Diane

See I am learning too ! Thanks Diane. ;-)

AppyLady
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Re: Appy genetics question...

ACC, there really isn't anything known as Patn2 at this point. Patn1 (leopard) is most likely caused by a single gene, but the blanket patterns are probably caused by a number of pattern helping genes. The more the horse has, the larger the blanket.

I still don't get this whole "false leopard" thing. LOL! If a leopard has any base color on it's head and neck, it's going to roan out (and usually reveal spots underneath). It's just what Appaloosas do! To say "Appaloosa roan" is actually rather redundant. The only reason that full leopards don't roan is because they don't have any base coat color to roan -- it's already white.

lillith
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Re: Appy genetics question...

Have I missed something?

http://www.uky.edu/Ag/Horsemap/hgpfaq4.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Likewise, the gene for appaloosa has been found but there are at least 10 different types of white appaloosa patterns. The next frontier in color genetics is to understand what underlies these more subtle influences on color.

Have they located LP?

http://lillysthoughtoftheday.blogspot.com/
a fairly pointless little piece of cyberspace where I post random thoughts on just about anything, if you're bored any comments are welcome.

doublebarr
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Re: Appy genetics question...

So two Grey foals....what a waste!

Depends on what you are breeding for. Since the owner is a ABCR breeder, all 4 foals have curls, so it is NOT a waste. Thank goodness she is not just a color breeder, as the type of thinking this quote shows would imply of a person breeding horses. If she was an Appaloosa breeder it would be slightly sad (far cry from "waste") that gray would be the end color of the twin foals, but she is not an Appy breeder ;-)

doublebarr
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Re: Appy genetics question...

This the the first foal, Mac:
IMAGE(http://i646.photobucket.com/albums/uu187/Double_Bar_R/Horses/I-Pony/001a.jpg)
IMAGE(http://i646.photobucket.com/albums/uu187/Double_Bar_R/Horses/I-Pony/010a.jpg)

and his dam (ABCR):
IMAGE(http://i646.photobucket.com/albums/uu187/Double_Bar_R/Horses/I-Pony/060a-1.jpg)

(the pictures are mine as I own the colt and the dam ((and Stud in the OP))are currently in training with me)
The dams of the foals in the OP are not appaloosa colored and have no Appaloosa blood.

I do have a question about the photos in the OP. My understanding of the rules are as follows:

http://forum.equine-color.info/viewtopic..." onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
Before you post an image to the photo gallery or forum be sure you are the copyright holder of the photo (ie you took the photo or have ownership of the photo). If you are not the copyright holder of the photo post a link to the photo instead of the photo.

and:

http://forum.equine-color.info/viewtopic..." onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
You may only post photos to the forum that you own or have permission to post. If you do not own or have permission to post a photo you may instead provide a link to the website where the photo is hosted. If you do not abide by this rule you will be solely responsible for any copyright violations that may be punishable under US Copyright Law.

I know that ACC did NOT ask the owner for use of these photos, and that ACC did NOT take these photos. I don't understand a "professional photographer" who yanks photos that are not theirs and posts them elsewhere, against posted rules without credit to the owner of the photos. I do have a vested interest in these horses, a relationship with the owner and the photos I used are mine, unlike those with quick copy and paste fingers. I found this when doing a simple photo-word search and much to my surprise it was not the owner of the horses or the photos posting them (not surprised at who was stealing them though). I will be interested in the answer from Admin regarding the rules of this forum on pictures/photos and if they actually mean anything or are there just for show.

doublebarr
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Re: Appy genetics question...

And for those interested, just talked to Lindsay and this is the link to her site and more pictures of the horses:
http://www.curlyfarm.com/about.asp" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

New babys are not up yet, photographer is hopefully coming out this weekend :-)

lillith
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Re: Appy genetics question...

Heya, sorry you have been upset.

However people do tend to get excited about unusual ponies/colours on here and may not always think before they post pics they have found. I'm sure no harm was meant and at no point did the OP claim ownership of the pictures or the horses it was simply an interesting example how the same breeding can produce different results.

All 4 foals are curly? I see only 2, sorry confused.

I'm sure the owner is delighted with her luckily healthy foals but I have to agree with RF a bit, it is such a shame to see such pretty patterns dissapear under grey.

I am sure she meant no insult by commenting on the 'waste' of the colour, Rabbit is not best known for her tact but she is a nice person. (hides from RF :smile: )

http://lillysthoughtoftheday.blogspot.com/
a fairly pointless little piece of cyberspace where I post random thoughts on just about anything, if you're bored any comments are welcome.

doublebarr
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Re: Appy genetics question...

Heya, sorry you have been upset.

However people do tend to get excited about unusual ponies/colours on here and may not always think before they post pics they have found. I'm sure no harm was meant and at no point did the OP claim ownership of the pictures or the horses it was simply an interesting example how the same breeding can produce different results.

She has been called on this before, and as a "professional photographer" she well knows proper respect should be given to the original photographer. A link takes no more time then copy and paste of the original picture.

All 4 foals are curly? I see only 2, sorry confused.

These are the other three foals, the twins from the op:
Hawthorn
IMAGE(http://i646.photobucket.com/albums/uu187/Double_Bar_R/Noblewood%20Curly%20Appys/Hawthorn.jpg)

Hemingway
IMAGE(http://i646.photobucket.com/albums/uu187/Double_Bar_R/Noblewood%20Curly%20Appys/Hemingway.jpg)

and Beatrix foaled yesterday:
IMAGE(http://i646.photobucket.com/albums/uu187/Double_Bar_R/Noblewood%20Curly%20Appys/Beatrix.jpg)

These three out of solid, non appaloosa lined or colored horses. My colt, Mac was born last year out of an appaloosa colored ABCR mare shown above. All the foals are by the same stud, Rusty:
IMAGE(http://i646.photobucket.com/albums/uu187/Double_Bar_R/Horses/I-Pony/006a-2.jpg)
IMAGE(http://i646.photobucket.com/albums/uu187/Double_Bar_R/Horses/I-Pony/041a.jpg)

Third Peppermint
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Re: Appy genetics question...

So that doesn't count as fair use? I mean, ACC used less than 5 photos from 1? artist without permission, for educational purposes only, and has not exceeded 2 years. That was what I understood from The Fair Use Guidelines...

doublebarr
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Re: Appy genetics question...

So that doesn't count as fair use? I mean, ACC used less than 5 photos from 1? artist without permission, for educational purposes only, and has not exceeded 2 years. That was what I understood from The Fair Use Guidelines...

What does Fair Use have to do with posted rules on THIS forum? And she has hotlinked to 6 photos of the owners, so she would be in violation of the Fair Use also:

http://altlab.com/hotlinking.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

(hmmmmm, may need to talk to Linds about setting up a "switcharoo" for folks like ACC that think nothing of stealing bandwidth and yanking photos without credit. Sad that a "professional photographer" doesn't think that laymen deserve the courtesy and respect her "profession" does.)

Monsterpony
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Re: Appy genetics question...

I broke the images in question for the time being until this is cleared up.

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