My Flaxen observations...

see pedigrees of Flaxen study horses here:
http://www.thesokolows.com" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

I personally know someone who bred flaxen to flaxen many times and never got a singfle flaxen, then again my flaxen has been bred to non flaxen and has had all flaxen.

My flaxen
[img]http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v605/…]

[quote="Fledgesflight"]#1. (visual) Flaxen X Flaxen = 100% Flaxen...no exceptions!

#2. (visual) Flaxen X Chestnut = 50% Flaxen and 50% Chestnut.

#3. Flaxen only needs one copy to express- see above.

#4a. Chestnuts X Chestnut = 100% Chestnuts-will never produce Flaxen, no exceptions!
#4b. Flaxen is only hidden in Black-based bases- otherwise it is expressed.

What do you think?[/quote]

Fledges: #2 does not prove #3. I personally disagree with #4a.

Peruvian: I'd like to see the photos of those "non flaxens". I've had other people say that, but when they post the photos several people say "I see flaxen, just a minimal form".

I think a lot of it is going to depend on the definition of flaxen. I.E. how light does it need to be, To be considered "flaxen". Is a mane and tail that are only a shade or two lighter than the body flaxen? Or does it have to be much lighter than the body. Ive seen what one person considers NOT flaxen and I personally DO consider it flaxen.

If I ever get back on my regular computer I have pics of flaxen out of 2 non-flaxen...just remind me when I get back on the cpmputer

To me it just seems like Flaxen X Flaxen would have a 25% chance of N/N, 50% chance of N/F and a 25% chance of F/F assuming both horses were only heterozygous if they only need 1 copy to express. I can't really help with the breeding situation as both our stallions are bay based, but maybe I could do some digging on if there is any flaxen in their lines because we do have at least 3 flaxens that were out of chestnut mares.

[quote="CMhorses"]To me it just seems like Flaxen X Flaxen would have a 25% chance of N/N, 50% chance of N/F and a 25% chance of F/F assuming both horses were only heterozygous if they only need 1 copy to express.[/quote]Agree with this as well. And will go even further and say that most of those can NOT co exist with each other.

1 cannot coexist with 2, 3, and 4 because 1 shows a recessive pattern inheritance and the rest show a dominant inheritance.

Also there could be different alleles causing the phenotype. Some flaxen is really light, some almost the same as the body colour just slightly lighter. It might not be just one single simple allele causing all flaxen.

hmm...maybe the title should have also read ------"so far"

*Shrug* only going off of the study and what's there in front of me in the way of pedigrees. The way it's reading shows that no Chestnut to Chestnut produces Flaxen (yet that I've seen in the study), yet AOC other than Chestnut, to Chestnut can produce Flaxen.
Flaxen to Flaxen (in the study) always produces Flaxen.

Keep in mind it's based off of what has been put up there in the way of coloured pedigrees- I've no access to any pictures-to which I've no doubt there are many different ranges involved.

Fraid not.
I bred Flaxen (Rabbit) to Flaxen (mare same colour as Rabbit) and got a Red Dun with dark mane and tail, first one I have ever had, or seen for myself outside pictures as, over here, Red Dun come hand in hand with Flaxen...usually!!

How do we know if they're not actually flaxen and just heavy on the guard hairs?

The trouble is that flaxen is probably caused by more than one gene, which is why you see a gradient of flaxen phenotypes. Therefore, you can get mixtures of the alleles at various genes contributing to flaxen, and the simple "single Mendelian locus" percentages no longer work. For example, say flaxen is caused by two genes, F1 and F2, and the phenotypes are as follows:

F1_ F2_ = not flaxen

F1_ f2f2 = some flaxen

f1f1 F2_f2 = some flaxen

f1f1 f2f2 = very flaxen

So you could breed two "flaxen" horses (F1_ f2f2 x f1f1 F2_) and get a non-flaxen offspring. Or there could be THREE flaxen loci, all contributing to the amount or presence of flaxen. I think that saying "flaxen x flaxen always equals flaxen" is a tough statement to prove, because of the huge degree of variation in flaxen. What I have seen is that a VERY flaxen horse (where the mane is practically white) crossed with another VERY flaxen horse produces a very flaxen horse. So maybe these animals are the "most" recessive. But again, it's hard to prove.

[quote="Fledgesflight"]#1. (visual) Flaxen X Flaxen = 100% Flaxen...no exceptions!
#2. (visual) Flaxen X Chestnut = 50% Flaxen and 50% Chestnut.
#3. Flaxen only needs one copy to express- see above.
#4a. Chestnuts X Chestnut = 100% Chestnuts-will never produce Flaxen, no exceptions!
#4b. Flaxen is only hidden in Black-based bases- otherwise it is expressed.
[/quote]
That pattern of inheritance doesn't make sense to me... also, I really trust their criteria for what they are calling flaxen vs not. But it looks like a great database to work with...

I got to read this article last night as I found you didn't have to register to the site in order to read it if you did it like this..
http://74.125.155.132/search?q=cache:c5…" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

I'm feeling a little disapointed! lol.
I was willing to accept their ideas for what was minimal Flaxen to obvious Flaxen in their study.
I personally don't know why #1 and #2 are like that either as it doesn't make sense to me, but there it is on their charts of numerous breedings- I was thinking about it all last night! I just couldn't sleep. Guess we'll find out more as the study progresses as this is apparently only the first phase.

Morgan pedigrees here (Chestnut=orange, Flaxen=Yellow, Females=ovals, Males= rectangles)
http://www.thesokolows.com/colorresearc…" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Thanks to all who had thoughts.

theres a QH filly here who has 2 obvious and non-flaxen parents (both cherry red with dark red manes and tails) and she is nealry cream looking. she is flaxen & pangrae.

Interesting^ Could you share any young-ish pictures of the parents?

I've been looking at a few flaxen Belgian crosses- it appears roughly 50/50 on the inheritance of Flaxen being passed on by the Flaxen Belgian parent, while all of the Flaxen horses of non Belgian crosses have always had a Flaxen parent if it were out/by both Chestnuts.

[quote="peruvianpasogal"] then again my flaxen has been bred to non flaxen and has had all flaxen.

My flaxen
[img]http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v605/…]
How many foals have he or she had?

[quote="Heather"]If I ever get back on my regular computer I have pics of flaxen out of 2 non-flaxen...just remind me when I get back on the cpmputer[/quote]

Are you back on the computer yet :p

I've found nothing regarding two non-Flaxen Chestnut parents producing Flaxen Chestnut offspring on the net- I'd be happy to be shown overwise. :)

Hang on, isn't the theory that flaxen is homozygous recessive? And only shows in the homozygous recessive form? So producing a flaxen from two non-flaxen would be a given...

Diane

^ yup that's one of the theories, but I'm yet to find one from two Chestnut parents.

Another topic of interest as I absolutely adore chestnut/flaxens! I must have a thing for 'blondes' (e.g., chestnut/flaxens and palominos, strawberry roans, etc.). *LOL*

I am aware of the Sokolows research as I stumbled across it when doing a name search for one of the mares in my keeping (LSR Tanqueray Sterling). In correspondence with Sonya I provided information on all three of my chestnut mares, one non-flaxen and two chestnut/flaxens.

It's interesting how some flaxens remain light (e.g., LSR Tanqueray Sterling) while others (e.g., Questor Mystique) start light and darken with age. It appears that the color is most definitely poly-genetic and recessive too perhaps.

Thanks for the posts here, I will follow with much interest...

~"If you have seen nothing but the beauty of their markings and limbs, their true beauty is hidden from you." – Al Mutannabbi, 9th century AD~

http://centennialappaloosas.webs.com/20…" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

scroll down to the filly "Rosanna"

her mum is liver chesnut in summer, shes on broody page, and my friend owns the dad, he is sabino (blaze and stockings) and has no lighter coloured bits at all

The dam looks like she's got a bit of Flaxen in her mane - albeit darker. I'd love to see some younger pictures of her.

I could not find any pictures of the sire.

Thanks for the link anyhow.

sorry no pics of sire, owned by another friend not stud. hes a sabino chestnut, big blaze n red as red.

So basically a theory is a horse can be f/n which would not show, or f/f which would show flaxen, unless they are a black base of course.

It could be the case that the allele that causes flaxen does not always express when it is present.

Could account for some of the possible flaxen on Bays that we've seen in the past (in theory, that is) it may have to be F/F to express on Black base........

[quote="rabbitsfizz"]Could account for some of the possible flaxen on Bays that we've seen in the past (in theory, that is) it may have to be F/F to express on Black base........[/quote]
I personally don't think so. IMO we would see more bays with flaxen if this was the case.

[quote="Dogrose"]It could be the case that the allele that causes flaxen does not always express when it is present.[/quote]

Whoops- read it wrongly.. this would mean that you [i]could[/i] get a Flaxen Chestnut, from two CLEARLY non Flaxen Chestnut parents - and I haven't found one.