zimecterin gold

That's the one that is Ivermectin + Praziquantel, right? I typically use it once a year for tapeworms. Hmm. What is causing the problems?

edit: I should amend that to say that I use it once a year in my adult horses.

It is, but apparently it has something else in it that's causing the problem. Are you sure you're using Zimectrin Gold? Equimax is also ivermectin + praziquantel but it doesn't get the negative reports Zimectrin Gold does and it's what I use.

I don't remember the exact details of what happened to this horse, just that it was very bad. She ended up having a seizure in the concrete stall at the hospital and hurting herself pretty badly, too.
It hit the mouth and caused drooling, swelling, irritation, burns their throat, gets to the stomach and causes colic like symptoms, gets into the intestine and from there diffused into the bloodstream, then it broke the blood brain barrier and caused seizures.
That's just the parts I can remember. It took place over a couple of days.

There is nothing in Equimax that should cause this reaction.
It is possible that it was a contaminated batch, they should, obviously, contact the manufacturers immediately and fill out all the forms they will be sent.
Ivermectin and Praziquantel are thought to be about the most safe drugs on the market.
There is always a very small chance of an animal having an allergic reaction but there is nothing in Equimax except Praziquantel and Ivermectin.
It is also possible that the horse had a huge worm burden but, just form the description, it sounds like an allergic response.
Now, if it had been Moxidectin.....

I don't think it was a bad batch, when they called their other vet and described her symptoms she immediately asked if they had used zimmecterin gold. She said that she had seen it a lot.
Here's a thread on it that i found while googling:
http://www.chronofhorse.com/forum/showt…" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
[quote]Its not that kind of [allergic] reaction. Its a chemical burn and they have had enough complaints that they not only changed the packaging but they pay for all the Vet bills and even for full courses of GastroGuard. They have an entire department that exists just to collect information on the burns and pay out the claims. They know and they have known for a long time.[/quote]

that is bizarre, they are not mixing it right or something that is about the safest combo you can use, i would have thought contaminiation too

There is no mixing with Zimecterin Gold. It's in a tube that you squirt into the mouth/back of the throat. At least all of the ones I've seen have been.

Heres the snippet that scared me the most when I read the COTH thread right when it was posted.
[quote]Mix ZG with plain water at a rate of 1:20 and very dilute ZG had a ph high enough to burn. Higher then 12. There is no reason to sell a product designed to be put in the mouth that reacts badly with water. I didn't have the nerve to even put a little solution on my arm to see if it burned.[/quote]

by mixing i mean at the factory.

This has been going on for far too long to be a bad batch.

But I agree, nothing in it should cause a problem as the same exact drugs in Equimax don't cause a problem. It must be something specific the Zimectrin people are using to blend the drugs or something.

A bad mix has happened before. Thanks. I just wormed too!

I always rotate between safeguard, ivermectin, and strongid, all three are safe on foals and I've never had any reactions, I refuse to use quest or zimectrin gold or anything of that sort. I have a bad enough horse I'll use a panacure power pack on them when I get them in.

None of the products you mention have praziquantel though and my understanding is that you need to use a product that contains it once a year or you miss tapeworms.

http://www.getrotationright.com/underst…" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

That is the program I follow, and it says it treats tapeworms.

Huh, okay. I was told only praziquantel will get them.

[quote="Sara"]Huh, okay. I was told only praziquantel will get them.[/quote]

Ya, it is what I thought too....it has to be in one of those products.

It is in: EquiMax, Zimectrin Gold, and Quest Plus that I know of....

If you guys remember, when I first got Patches she had a huge tapeworm infestation and it took a long time to get rid of them all...and of course, I had to treat EVERYONE as well as the pastures and barns...It was a lot of work for nearly a year.
The one thing all the vets agreed on was that ivermectin is great on most worm issues, but alone will only reduce the tapeworm load. It will NOT get rid of tapeworm completely and when they come back, the infestation is worse than it was to begin with...praziquantel kills the tapeworm, larva and eggs. It is combined with ivermectin because where there are tapeworm, there is usually at least one other species of parasite.
SO, we went with equimax (did try zimectrin gold, but the horses hated it, so after the first time, I never used it again). Now we just go with Equimax twice a year (spring and fall) as part of our regular worming routine.

I actually never really think about tape worms :? but I suppose I should at least run something for that through them this year...thanks for the zimectrin gold warning ! I usually use ivermectin and safe-guard through the warm months and the big dose fenbendazole on new horses. I dont use the power pack though, I sort of cheat and use the giant cattle tubes :lol: The first time they were like "WTH is THAT?" but they got used to it right away,now I find it actually easier to handle, you can get it way back in their mouth without getting bitten. Incedentally I learned that Pro Bios is sweat this year lol. I went out just into their place with the big tube and gun without haltering and was dosing them and was suprised when they were grabbing the tube themselves and then mobbing around me begging for more :rofl

http://www.horsekeeping.com/horse_healt…" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

If you double dose with strongid, it will kill the tapeworms as well, which in my opinion is better for the younger horses in my preference anyways, I don't really like using other wormers besides ivermectin, safeguard, and strongid.

praziquantil is a very safe drug IMO...no need to over dose soemthing else and build tolerence when something like it works in a moderate dosage.

Strongid really does not have a good effect on tapeworms.
There is no need, or point, in "rotating" wormers, there is no known resistance in horses, to Ivermectin and, so long as you weigh your horse before worming, it is the most effective way of getting everything except Tapes and Encysteds.
Fenbendazole, in double dose in the States and single dose in Europe, for five days, gets encysteds (Moxidectin is not safe for Minis and not, IMO, safe for anything!!) but has to be used AS WELL AS the Ivermectin, Fenbendazole has a known resistance that is quite high, in Equines, and should not be used as a single dose wormer, except in foals.
I do not actually like Strongid, at all, as a wormer. Again, resistance, especially, now to the every day one.
Praziquantel, for some reason, is not available in the States as a single chemical wormer, but I can get it here quite easily, I think it just a matter of them not being asked for it, so it is not offered....Ask!!
I do the Ivermectin and the Praziquantel together, it is said that foals up to yearlings are safe, but I do include them in the worming in the autumn, anyway, so my youngsters are done for Tapes at six months old.

[quote]It hit the mouth and caused drooling, swelling, irritation, burns their throat, gets to the stomach and causes colic like symptoms, gets into the intestine and from there diffused into the bloodstream, then it broke the blood brain barrier and caused seizures. [/quote]

From the Zimectrin Gold drug label [quote]Warning: Not for use in humans. Keep this and all drugs out of reach of children. In horses there have been rare reports of swelling and irritation of the mouth, lips and tongue following administration of ZIMECTERIN Gold. These reactions have been transitory in nature. Do not use in other animal species as severe adverse reactions, including fatalities in dogs, may result.[/quote]
From what I can find, the swelling and irritation has been seen in horses with wounds in their mouths or if the dewormer is placed in the cheek pocket. In general, it is a rare reaction and goes away within 24-48 hours, especially if treated with bute or banamine.

I can't find any information on praziquantel causing seizure-like activity, but that is a sign of ivermectin toxicity. How old was your friend's horse and how much was it dosed with?

[quote="JazzyPaintsnQtrs"]
If you double dose with strongid, it will kill the tapeworms as well[/quote]
Rarely and definitely not as effectively as praziquantal.

[quote]There is no need, or point, in "rotating" wormers, there is no known resistance in horses, to Ivermectin and, so long as you weigh your horse before worming, it is the most effective way of getting everything except Tapes and Encysteds.[/quote]
Untrue. There is resistance being found to [b]all[/b] dewormers.

[quote]Moxidectin is not safe for Minis and not, IMO, safe for anything!![/quote]
Untrue. Moxidectin is safe for any horse [i]when dosed correctly[/i]. The whole mini rumor started because one person dosed their newborn mini foal with an entire tube of moxidectin and then went screaming around the internet that moxidectin was unsafe in minis because the foal, not surprisingly, died. No avermectins (ivermectin, selamectin, moxidectin, etc) should ever be used in a horse <6 months old as they have an incomplete blood brain barrier (it even states it on the label). Moxidectin has a lower toxic dose than other dewormers, so it must be dosed correctly (moxidectin is toxic at 2-3 times dose while fenbendazole is safe at 10 times dose).

[quote="Monsterpony"]

[quote]Moxidectin is not safe for Minis and not, IMO, safe for anything!![/quote]
Untrue. Moxidectin is safe for any horse [i]when dosed correctly[/i]. The whole mini rumor started because one person dosed their newborn mini foal with an entire tube of moxidectin and then went screaming around the internet that moxidectin was unsafe in minis because the foal, not surprisingly, died. No avermectins (ivermectin, selamectin, moxidectin, etc) should ever be used in a horse <6 months old as they have an incomplete blood brain barrier (it even states it on the label). Moxidectin has a lower toxic dose than other dewormers, so it must be dosed correctly (moxidectin is toxic at 2-3 times dose while fenbendazole is safe at 10 times dose).[/quote]
I think I remember reading that quest was designed to be stored in the fat and released long term and so you have to be extra careful with thin horses, is this true? Or was it just from people overdosing thin horses without checking weight each and every time you worm.

I'm not sure how old the mare was, Other than being swollen in the stifle from thrashing in the stall during her seizure she looked to be in good health, I'd assume she isn't terribly old but she is for sure isn't young young. I know that's like the most nondescript answer ever haha. I'd say somewhere around 10ish, not older than 15, not younger than 5.

I do know moxidectin has a longer efficacy (usually ~3 months), but I can't find anything on fat storage, though it is a reasonable theory. I'll do some more thorough digging though.

Wondering if this brand is just too high an ivermectin dose??
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ivermectin…" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
http://www.safe2use.com/scabiesboard/iv…" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false; (the part about toxicity)

A full tube of zimectrin gold (which treats 1250lbs/570kgs) contains 114mg ivermectin. That equals 0.2mg/kg, which is the recommended dose of ivermectin. You have to give a 10X dose of 2 mg/kg to see toxicity in most horses.

haha I did the math on it earlier. But I was just wondering if maybe they put more than they say they do or something??

OK, MP I am going to challenge you on this one.
Moxidectin being unsafe has nothing to do with the amount given, it has ALL to do with the amount dumped into the system at any one time.
You can dose with the exact right amount, and, if the horse has not the correct amount of fat (and no-one is sure what this is) to "hold" the chemical for up to 13 weeks, then too much is released into the system, and the horse is "overdosed"
This can happen with any horse, any size, but obviously can happen far more easily in a Mini than a big horse. I also accept that a lot of Mini people are paranoid about allowing them to be fat, and that this does not help at all.
There has been at least one, documented, case of Moxidectin [i]killing[/i] a Mini, that was correctly dosed. Although they did not actually accept responsibility, they paid all the bills, and they paid out on the dead horse, and they now put a "not to be used in Miniature Horses" warning.....BUT only in the States!!!!
PLEASE DO NOT USE MOXIDECTIN ON A MINIATURE HORSE FOR ANY REASON!!
As to Ivermectin having no known resistance, this is fact, not conjecture.
I am not aware of any really recent tests, but the last ones done showed resistance in[i] cattle[/i] but none in horses, and it is this test that is often cited when people claim resistance, so, as said, Ivermectin has no known resistance [i]in horses[/i].
Therefore there is no need, and no point, in "rotating" chemicals, if you use Ivermectin as a base wormer, but, of course, as I also said, you do need to use a Tapeworm and the Fenbendazole five day for encysteds at least twice a year (that's in my area, some differ)
And of course, there is no point whatsoever in rotating brand names, as I know some people do!