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What color is this mare?

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appycowgirl64
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What color is this mare?
With this mare I went and registered her as a grulla but I am really stumped as to what her actual color is because to me she doesn't look like a true grulla but I would not consider her to be dark brown either as she has black spots on her muzzle and I was always under the impression that a black based horse will have black on the muzzle. Her sire is my stallion who is a grulla and he is both heterozygous for the dun gene as well as the black gene. Her dam is my chestnut mare Star that when she was bred to a red dun produced 2 red dun foals and when bred to my stallion has produced 2 black foals before producing this filly.[attachment=1]ASI100_0461A.jpg[/attachment]
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Re: What color is this mare?

I see bay, maybe brown. I don't see any grulla.

.

RiddleMeThis
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Re: What color is this mare?

Still on my phone but I see seal no grulla.

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Jenks
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Re: What color is this mare?

I think your phone is fine if you can see her tan areas!

I see bay here too. Seal even if that's the tan spot in her flanks.

accphotography
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Re: What color is this mare?

I too see brown/seal. If it's possible the sire has cream I might throw that in.

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lipigirl
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Re: What color is this mare?

Brown seal bay, I too see no Dun markings.

dakotakdq
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Re: What color is this mare?

she looks bay/brown to me too, no dun

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appycowgirl64
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Re: What color is this mare?

I was wondering on the seal brown color and can that color come from a cross between a chestnut and a grulla? I personally wouldn't say brown since with her, I see black on her muzzle and I am under the impression that if there is black on the muzzle they aren't a brown. Who is the lab that does the testing for seal because if I remember right, there is only one lab right now doing testing on seal.

Now if I am right, a grulla horse could be aa for the agouti gene but wouldn't be Aa or AA because then they would be bay dun instead of grulla. Could there be a possibilty that a chestnut or even a grulla be carrying the recessive cream gene and just not expressing it but yet with the crossing of the 2, the cream gene could then express itself in a single form.

Also, another question on the dun zygosity test that UC Davis does. Does that dun zygosity test, test for homozygous and heterozygous on duns or just if the horse is carrying dun or not, as I have 3 foals that I would like to test for homozygous on the dun factor since the foals are out of 2 dun parents.

LL Appaloosas Loretta Grosset Standing: Dial A Challenge Grulla Appaloosa reining stallion, FPD registered ApHC Nat'l and Res. World Champion Sire, ROM and Bronze Medallion Sire PSSM1 n/n, GBED n/n, HERDA n/n, OLWS n/n Splash White - SW1 n/SW1, SW

accphotography
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Re: What color is this mare?

Yes a seal can come from a chestnut and a grullo, the chestnut could be hiding agouti.

The black you are seeing on her nose is just skin. Her head is red(ish). There is no way she's not agouti positive (Aa), so that makes her bay or brown.

The lab is http://www.petdnaservicesaz.com/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;.

You're right about grullo. 'aa' only. And yes, a cream could come from those two as cream doesn't express on an 'aa', which a grullo is.

The dun zygosity test will pretty much tell you whatever you want to know. It will tell you if the horse is negative, heterozygous or homozygous at this point with a small window for error since it's not a specific mutation test.

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accphotography
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Re: What color is this mare?

Let me ask while I'm thinking about it. Where are you seeing black on her nose?

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Re: What color is this mare?

I do not see Brown on this one, I looked carefully as I am trying to get this issue sorted in my head, I see Bay + Pangaré

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appycowgirl64
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Re: What color is this mare?

Right on the muzzle at the end of her snip. It looks like 2 black dots there.

I may just have to have my stud tested then for the cream gene as I have one filly that I would consider a bay dun but her coat to me is lighter then the normal bay dun as she has a full brother that is a bay dun as well and was much darker. I attached some pics. Am I correct in calling her a bay dun as I have also seen zebra dun for a color from a mating between a grulla and a red dun. That has me confused between the 2 if there really is a difference or not. She is one of the ones I was mentioning to have tested for homozygous for the dun gene. Now from my understanding she can not technically be called a buckskin because she is from 2 dun parents unless she is carrying one copy of the cream gene.

On that Pet DNA Services I have heard mixed emotions from folks on getting back their tests. Hopefully that will go well if I send in a sample.

Let me ask this on the seal. What makes the seal different from a regular brown horse?

LL Appaloosas Loretta Grosset Standing: Dial A Challenge Grulla Appaloosa reining stallion, FPD registered ApHC Nat'l and Res. World Champion Sire, ROM and Bronze Medallion Sire PSSM1 n/n, GBED n/n, HERDA n/n, OLWS n/n Splash White - SW1 n/SW1, SW

accphotography
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Re: What color is this mare?

RF: I could go with that. I think that's possible in this case.

AppyCowgirl:

What you are seeing is a hairless place and black skin. This would be black even on a chestnut:

IMAGE(http://www.accphotography.com/gallery/download/16142-5/IMG_5015.jpg)

I really would test him for cream. I'm definitely suspicious of it.

Bay dun and zebra dun are one and the same. And yes, that filly is bay dun, but I agree that she looks like she could have cream as well.

I have a feeling you're thinking of another lab (DNA Diagnostics, who definitely has trouble getting results back to people) as I have NEVER heard a complaint about Pet DNA Services.

Seal and brown are one and the same. It's just a fancy name for brown that some seem to prefer.

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Jenks
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Re: What color is this mare?

Hmmm. I need to get it straight as seal for me was always bay plus pangare, but brown is a specific bay gene....

lipigirl
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Re: What color is this mare?

I know what you mean Jenks sometimes it's hard keeping up with it all. ;)

accphotography
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Re: What color is this mare?

Bay plus pangare' has a totally different look from seal IMO. Pangare' causes light tan muzzles, brown causes orange. A bay with pangare' will have a lighter, redder coat, a brown will have a darker, orangier coat.

Here's a bay with mild pangare':
IMAGE(http://i256.photobucket.com/albums/hh187/coolwater65/DadsHorses/June2007-5.jpg)

Another, but more obvious due to the foal stage of pangare':
IMAGE(http://www.morgancolors.com/udmamericanmade.jpg)

It's actually really hard to find true bays with pangare' that shows well.

Browns:

IMAGE(http://www.ultimatehorsesite.com/images_colors/brown3.JPG)

IMAGE(http://gigshowcase.com/Imager.aspx?File=1339.jpg)

Pangare' muzzle:
IMAGE(http://www.theequinest.com/images/exmoor-pony.jpg)

Brown muzzle:
IMAGE(http://www.mustangs4us.com/Horse%20Colors/PIX/p1011198_small.jpg)

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Jenks
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Re: What color is this mare?

I think it's the same thing, but with a different color. Kind of like the difference between a bird carrying silver (S) vs one carrying gold (s+), but affecting the same spots.....know what I mean? It's just in the same exact place, so it would make sense.....??? Anywho, thanks ACC! I see what you are saying.

I'm going back to the Seal thread! What if there WERE 2 genes acting together? That might explain why 2 non-phenotypes can produce it? Maybe one carries the gene affecting the area and the other carries the color that makes it show on the brown genotype?? Can 2 non-browns make a brown? But then that takes me back to it expressing on chestnuts....so...Did they test the pangare chestnuts for this brown bay gene At ? What if Pangare was on agouti or was actually At or some form and the only form of bay that showed on chestnuts? Then it is just a matter of the tan vs paler cream color.

appycowgirl64
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Re: What color is this mare?

Okay ACC, this is leaving me a bit confused when you say that the cream gene can not act on a grulla because they are aa, but yet when I go on Animal Genetics coat calculator it gives smokey black as EE or Ee/ aa/ n/CR . Is it the fact that the dun is keeping the cream from acting on the coat color instead, because it is already diluting the coat color one shade and the dun gene can actually over power the cream gene.

LL Appaloosas Loretta Grosset Standing: Dial A Challenge Grulla Appaloosa reining stallion, FPD registered ApHC Nat'l and Res. World Champion Sire, ROM and Bronze Medallion Sire PSSM1 n/n, GBED n/n, HERDA n/n, OLWS n/n Splash White - SW1 n/SW1, SW

appycowgirl64
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Re: What color is this mare?

Now I am actually starting to wonder if a smokey grullo and grullo look almost about the same and therefore you just can't tell if they are actually carrying the cream gene.

LL Appaloosas Loretta Grosset Standing: Dial A Challenge Grulla Appaloosa reining stallion, FPD registered ApHC Nat'l and Res. World Champion Sire, ROM and Bronze Medallion Sire PSSM1 n/n, GBED n/n, HERDA n/n, OLWS n/n Splash White - SW1 n/SW1, SW

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Re: What color is this mare?

cream doesnt work on black base unless homozygous. smoky black usually looks identical too regular black. smokey grulla usually looks the same as regular grulla.

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accphotography
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Re: What color is this mare?

Exactly. A single dose of cream on black will not show. The genetics are still there, the name is still there, but it's not visible phenotypically.

Jenks, I could buy that theory if they hadn't already located the gene solely responsible for seal. When all of those dark horses with the orangey muzzles test positive for seal, and none of those red horses with the tan muzzles test positive, it's pretty clear to me that bay + pangare' and seal are different.

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Jenks
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Re: What color is this mare?

Exactly. A single dose of cream on black will not show. The genetics are still there, the name is still there, but it's not visible phenotypically.

Jenks, I could buy that theory if they hadn't already located the gene solely responsible for seal. When all of those dark horses with the orangey muzzles test positive for seal, and none of those red horses with the tan muzzles test positive, it's pretty clear to me that bay + pangare' and seal are different.

but you agree on the location being the same? Pangare has to be also on the agouti locus or just be VERY similar to seal.

And if the At gene were only part of it, then it would still work...

accphotography
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Re: What color is this mare?

but you agree on the location being the same? Pangare has to be also on the agouti locus or just be VERY similar to seal.

And if the At gene were only part of it, then it would still work...

Agree that brown and bay are on the same locus? Yes. I'm not sure if that's what you're asking though.

Pangare' wouldn't have to be on the agouti locus. Look at dun. It causes the body but not the points to be diluted but it is in no way related to agouti. Cream and champagne have strikingly similar phenotypes but are not related, etc. I personally don't see any real reason to think pangare' and seal are related in any way. Especially not when you consider some of the lighter browns don't even have a lighter muzzle.

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appycowgirl64
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Re: What color is this mare?

When looking at my stud's pedigree, his sire was a blue roan and down through the maternal side until you get to his great, great grandfather they are all blue roans and his great, great grandfather was a buckskin. Can those blue roans carry the cream gene through and be just like the blacks in not really expressing the cream gene?

LL Appaloosas Loretta Grosset Standing: Dial A Challenge Grulla Appaloosa reining stallion, FPD registered ApHC Nat'l and Res. World Champion Sire, ROM and Bronze Medallion Sire PSSM1 n/n, GBED n/n, HERDA n/n, OLWS n/n Splash White - SW1 n/SW1, SW

accphotography
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Re: What color is this mare?

Yup, no non agouti black base (E_ aa) will express cream unless they are homozygous for cream. No one would know they were cream unless they had offspring to prove it. If you post the pedigree we might be able to tell you more.

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Re: What color is this mare?

ACC that just is not true, I am surprised at you even saying it, we have seen many, many examples of Black showing a single dilution of Cream (and many that do not, I know) especially in Minis, but I am almost certain that we have seen examples in other breeds!

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accphotography
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Re: What color is this mare?

ACC that just is not true, I am surprised at you even saying it, we have seen many, many examples of Black showing a single dilution of Cream (and many that do not, I know) especially in Minis, but I am almost certain that we have seen examples in other breeds!

Oh BS RF. And I'm surprised at you saying it too. It does not show. I'd love to see the examples you speak of.

Appy: I found his pedigree. His sire's granddam Brite Peavy has two buckskin by a chestnut stallion, so she was hiding cream for sure. There's no reason to think it didn't continue down the line.

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Re: What color is this mare?

Rabbit is correct...sometimes black shows a single dose of cream and sometimes it doesn't. I have photos of smoky blacks (tested) and some of them are jet, jet black and some are flat-out brown. It's a roll of the dice!

Jenks
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Re: What color is this mare?

Eh, it's not worth going into too deeply.

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Re: What color is this mare?

We know dun is not a mutation of MATP. Totally different chromsome!

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Re: What color is this mare?

Rabbit is correct...sometimes black shows a single dose of cream and sometimes it doesn't. I have photos of smoky blacks (tested) and some of them are jet, jet black and some are flat-out brown. It's a roll of the dice!

But here is my point, I can show you hordes of tested blacks that look brown. How do we know those smokey blacks that look brown wouldn't have looked brown anyway?

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