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Tobiano with solid legs

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Danni
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Tobiano with solid legs
I'm not really sure if it's all that unusual, but this seemed as good a section as any to put it! I was just thinking about tobiano's with dark legs/feet and remembered a filly I have is a good example of a tobi with dark feet. I don't have any great pictures of her so if it isn't raining tomorrow I might be able to get some clearer ones of her legs. But these a just a couple of pics I already had. To me she looks like a fairly normally marked tobinao, more colour than a lot but not really minimal? Her mum's a minimal tobiano with one solid leg and that white supression look going on the other legs. On the filly both her off side legs are chestnut all the way to the ground. Not even a dot of white on either of them. So not all that exciting, in that she isn't one of those interesting dark bits on a white leg but I know it's often said tobiano's will always have 4 white feet so thought I'd put her up! As a newborn, they are clearest pics of her legs I could find, but of course being a newborn there aren't very clear anyway! IMAGE(http://farm3.static.flickr.com/2802/4352299288_5c030fc2b4.jpg) IMAGE(http://farm3.static.flickr.com/2727/4352312102_7d7d7083f1.jpg) As a weanling, couldn't find any leg shots in these pics as the grass was too long! IMAGE(http://farm5.static.flickr.com/4009/4352299284_658d746e26.jpg) And more recently as a yearling IMAGE(http://farm5.static.flickr.com/4039/4352299282_d72a03ecd1.jpg) If it's interesting I'll make the effort to get some better picture of her and her legs, but if not so unusual I probably won't! Just thought I'd see what you guys said. Oh and here is her dam, who has the more obvious minimal white effect. IMAGE(http://farm5.static.flickr.com/4009/4352299294_4d63c639e2.jpg) Cheers Danni
Maigray
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Re: Tobiano with solid legs

That's awesome. Minis are notorious for their extreme white suppression.

Danni
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Re: Tobiano with solid legs

Has the skewbald filly got white suppression though? Her dam definately has to me what looks like white suppression, with those ermine spots or whatever they are called on the legs and the blunt bits to the socks, but the filly looks more normal tobiano?

When does a tobiano change from white suppression to not?? :?

accphotography
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Re: Tobiano with solid legs

Well SOMETHING is keeping her leg white down... no way tobi would do that on it's own IMO.

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Danni
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Re: Tobiano with solid legs

I guess not.... :?

Just when I thought I was getting my head around the white suppression thing :roll:

Heather
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Re: Tobiano with solid legs

most often its frame that does this to tobiano colors, more often seen in minis then regualr size horses, we have had threads in the past about this , some really awesome pics of big horses with solid legs, no comon at all.

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Re: Tobiano with solid legs

Still not much Frame in European (or European based) Minis and that Black looks like a Shetland to me, in fact it looks like a mare I used to own......
It is possible that the Red and White filly has minimal Tobiano and the rest of the white is expression of another pattern.....

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Dogrose
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Re: Tobiano with solid legs

I've seen shires and gypsies with one all black leg (always a front leg). I don't think Shires will have tobi so maybe it is a type of sabino doing it?
Like this:
IMAGE(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v343/DogRose/shiremare1.jpg)

[color=#804000][i]I bought me a horse twas called a grey mare
Grey mane and grey tail and green stripe on her back
Grey mane and grey tail and green stripe on her back
Weren't a hair upon her that was not coal black[/i][/color]

rabbitsfizz
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Re: Tobiano with solid legs

Absolutely NO chance of Tobiano!!
Possibly Splash in Shires and Clydes.
That is food for thought though, it relates back to another animals we were/are discussing.....

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Re: Tobiano with solid legs

I've seen shires and gypsies with one all black leg (always a front leg).

But its a different pattern expressing, that expresses differently than Tobiano does. It would be like comparing a horse who is tobiano with minimal leg white to a frame overo with minimal leg white.

The white is being caused by different genes, and thus will express differently.

The way I've written that my point comes across to me, does it make sense to every one else?

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Re: Tobiano with solid legs

I've seen shires and gypsies with one all black leg (always a front leg). I don't think Shires will have tobi so maybe it is a type of sabino doing it?
Like this:
IMAGE(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v343/DogRose/shiremare1.jpg)

non tobi with one solid front and high back stockings always makes me look for splash, not always there but often
and that is a BIG horse :shock:

Dogrose
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Re: Tobiano with solid legs

They were vast! I missed the gelding class, these were mares.
I know its not tobi on the Shire, just thought maybe if there was a sabino that sometimes missed a leg, if it was combined with tobi maybe it would make the leg miss at the same time.

[color=#804000][i]I bought me a horse twas called a grey mare
Grey mane and grey tail and green stripe on her back
Grey mane and grey tail and green stripe on her back
Weren't a hair upon her that was not coal black[/i][/color]

Heather
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Re: Tobiano with solid legs

for definition a tobiano in normal pattern makes 4 white legs( not hooves) and wither white and over the hip white, all other variations outside that is another pattern altering it.

Danni
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Re: Tobiano with solid legs

Still not much Frame in European (or European based) Minis and that Black looks like a Shetland to me, in fact it looks like a mare I used to own......

Yep they are shetlands, although they are mini sized shetlands, frame is as yet completely unheard of in shetties. I know never say never, but I seriously don't think think frame is the culprit here

It is possible that the Red and White filly has minimal Tobiano and the rest of the white is expression of another pattern.....

Really? Like splash?? I was thinking opposite weird thoughts today and wondering if tobiano maybe CAN have solid legs when splash isn't there?? It's just that splash is nearly always there?? Yeh I know, weird thoughts!

I do wonder though how in the shetlands it's really weird how splash exibits so strongly with the tobianos, and not without the tobinao. Although I guess that's because most shetlands don't have a "allow white to express" gene. So mostly they are solid black with no white, you cross them to a tobiano and the colours go wild! (And I get those :evil: ponies with coloured heads and white bodies!! :lol: )
Cheers

Danni

Danni
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Re: Tobiano with solid legs

I know its not tobi on the Shire, just thought maybe if there was a sabino that sometimes missed a leg, if it was combined with tobi maybe it would make the leg miss at the same time.

That makes sense to me. It's not totally unusual for them to have a completely dark leg, or legs anyway, back or front. This is a clydey mare with a dark foot with white above, so not tobiano or frame related here. Leaves sabino and splash?

IMAGE(http://img51.imageshack.us/img51/4535/clydesdalemareblackfoot.jpg)

accphotography
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Re: Tobiano with solid legs

Not necessarily... it also leaves a separate white suppressor.

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Re: Tobiano with solid legs

Such as??

Danni, there is no Frame in Shetlands, there is no Frame in native European breeds, end of!!
There is not thought to be Sabino in Shetlands, but I am highly suspect of that as there is obviously Splash and Sabino in Welsh, and the Welsh and the Shetlands interbred during WW2 (although the breed societies now hotly deny it. Unfortunately some of the actual members still remember it happening, and it was common knowledge when I first came into Shetlands 35 years ago!!)

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Re: Tobiano with solid legs

Well SOMETHING is keeping her leg white down... no way tobi would do that on it's own IMO.

Interesting thought. Since Tobi wants to put white on the legs...you think that something else must be pushing it away? Like Frame or the notorious "White Killer gene"?? LOL

Seriously -is there "something" to that white-killer (white suppression) gene? What is it?

Those are the only two things I can think of that would want to suppress leg white. (Frame or WK)

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No sabino in Shetlands?//Re: Tobiano with solid legs

Such as??

Danni, there is no Frame in Shetlands, there is no Frame in native European breeds, end of!!
There is not thought to be Sabino in Shetlands, but I am highly suspect of that as there is obviously Splash and Sabino in Welsh, and the Welsh and the Shetlands interbred during WW2 (although the breed societies now hotly deny it. Unfortunately some of the actual members still remember it happening, and it was common knowledge when I first came into Shetlands 35 years ago!!)

RF - just curious. If there is no sabino in Shetlands, are you attributing all "chromed out" Shetlands to SPLASH? I've seen lots and lots of Shetlands who were obviously sabino (and splash)...but perhaps you are talking about a certain region??? I know you know your Shetlands, so not questioning you :)

Just wondering if the chrome you see on the Shetlands you are talking about are due to Splash 100%?

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Dogrose
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Re: Tobiano with solid legs

I've been looking everywhere for a pic I took of my college tutor's KWPN gelding, he has no white on the fronts, one normal short sock on the back and one longer sock that is totally chestnut round the coronet and up to a few inches up then gradually roans into white at the top of the sock. It looks cool and weird. I can't believe I have deleted it, the whole folder has gone :-(
I have this pic of a shire foal that has a long sock that is being filled in with colour.
IMAGE(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v343/DogRose/shirefoal1.jpg)

[color=#804000][i]I bought me a horse twas called a grey mare
Grey mane and grey tail and green stripe on her back
Grey mane and grey tail and green stripe on her back
Weren't a hair upon her that was not coal black[/i][/color]

Heather
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Re: Tobiano with solid legs

the difference with the shires however is they are not tobiano, tobianos basic patttern code is to make 4 white legs ( not hooves) these other leg white horses can vary and not be uncommon.

Dogrose
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Re: Tobiano with solid legs

But if its combined with tobiano could it over ride the tobiano leg white?

[color=#804000][i]I bought me a horse twas called a grey mare
Grey mane and grey tail and green stripe on her back
Grey mane and grey tail and green stripe on her back
Weren't a hair upon her that was not coal black[/i][/color]

Heather
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Re: Tobiano with solid legs

theroys maybe, but for now in large horses so far the only tobianos that have lost complete leg white on a leg have frame, so at this point frame is the only one in theroy to make this happen on a tobiano, white supression? who knows if it is also able.

Danni
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Re: No sabino in Shetlands?//Re: Tobiano with solid legs

theroys maybe, but for now in large horses so far the only tobianos that have lost complete leg white on a leg have frame, so at this point frame is the only one in theroy to make this happen on a tobiano, white supression? who knows if it is also able.

It's definately, certainly not, only in tobianos with frame!!! Define big horse? You mean just not shetties/minis? The UK coloured/gypsy cobs get the dark legs with white above it. Completely solid legs are very unusual as they have so much sabino and splash too. And as much as mini's might do strange things I think it helps us to see why some theorys are out, rather than oh well that theory works except on minis. I mean they are the same genes.

RF - just curious. If there is no sabino in Shetlands, are you attributing all "chromed out" Shetlands to SPLASH? I've seen lots and lots of Shetlands who were obviously sabino (and splash)...but perhaps you are talking about a certain region??? I know you know your Shetlands, so not questioning you :)

Just wondering if the chrome you see on the Shetlands you are talking about are due to Splash 100%?

UK bred shetlands, not American shetlands. Do you mean American shetlands? They aren't shetlands!!!

UK bred shetlands don't have at least usual sabino.

I've never ever seen a shetland with white socks except if it had tobiano. It's an easy rule in the shetties, white socks of any amount means it must be a minimal tobiano. But I'm not sure if that means sabino is completely ruled out. I just think shetlands usually don't have what ever gene it is that allows splash and sabino to show, if that makes sense? But on the tobianos the splash and maybe sabino characteristics express. I find it a bit strange now I know how the rest of the horse world works :?
Cheers

Danni

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Re: Tobiano with solid legs

No, not completely true, there is Splash, and the Barflat ponies were Splash, minimal, and presented as Chestnut (usually) with big white blazes, the occasional blue eye and white socks.
Not knowing there was not supposed to be Sabino, I assumed it was Sabino (Welsh person at the time)
It was not til I got talking to Lewella that I realised there was not supposed to be Sabino, which was strange as Rabbit throws Red based, "ticked" coated foals, and is, among other things, a registered Shetland.

Sorry, BTW, I do mean "proper" Shetlands......AmShets do have a very small percentage of Shetland blood, about fifty years back, but they are not "Shetlands".
Very, very beautiful ponies, and I would commit murder for an Arenosa Mare, but not Shetlands!!
See, here, we often use "Shetland" (prefaced by bl**dy) as an insult....... :rofl

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accphotography
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Re: Tobiano with solid legs

Such as???

Such as an ACTUAL white suppressor. Not just some gene like frame that manipulates white, but a gene that actually SUPPRESSES all white. I'm sure you're aware of horses that have been dubbed "white killers" or erasers. These horses almost surely have had white suppressors.

Well SOMETHING is keeping her leg white down... no way tobi would do that on it's own IMO.

Interesting thought. Since Tobi wants to put white on the legs...you think that something else must be pushing it away? Like Frame or the notorious "White Killer gene"?? LOL

Seriously -is there "something" to that white-killer (white suppression) gene? What is it?

Those are the only two things I can think of that would want to suppress leg white. (Frame or WK)

Yes, there is most definitely something to it. There is far too much evidence to indicate it exists to ignore it.

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Heather
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Re: No sabino in Shetlands?//Re: Tobiano with solid legs

theroys maybe, but for now in large horses so far the only tobianos that have lost complete leg white on a leg have frame, so at this point frame is the only one in theroy to make this happen on a tobiano, white supression? who knows if it is also able.

It's definately, certainly not, only in tobianos with frame!!! Define big horse? You mean just not shetties/minis? The UK coloured/gypsy cobs get the dark legs with white above it. Completely solid legs are very unusual as they have so much sabino and splash too. And as much as mini's might do strange things I think it helps us to see why some theorys are out, rather than oh well that theory works except on minis. I mean they are the same genes.

Minis and shetties break rules, white patterns like tobiano behave differently on them, its not been seen like that in "paints" when you see solid leg on tobiano on a paint horse its been shown to be frame that does this, ...........and on the different subject of color legs with white above it this is seen in alot of Tribute to serria family lines, he is frame negitive. its a different subject alltogether thou then what was orgionaly started here but another good one, but my head is spinning here in this thread ... lol to many directions.

Danni
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Re: Tobiano with solid legs

No, not completely true, there is Splash, and the Barflat ponies were Splash, minimal, and presented as Chestnut (usually) with big white blazes, the occasional blue eye and white socks.
Not knowing there was not supposed to be Sabino, I assumed it was Sabino (Welsh person at the time)
It was not til I got talking to Lewella that I realised there was not supposed to be Sabino, which was strange as Rabbit throws Red based, "ticked" coated foals, and is, among other things, a registered Shetland.

I'm not sure we have Barflat bred ponies here? All ponies with socks that I know of, seen etc.., and that's many many of them, were tobiano. Splash is definitely there but again I've only seen it in the tobiano ponies. Blazes I've only ever seen in a tobiano, but the occasional star in the solid ponies. I might have fun testing ponies now I know socks without tobi is possible. I think a vast majority of our imported shetlands were black with no white! It's been a long time getting away from that a bit here. Enough greys were imported that hid colours, and the occasional different colours imported, but I think we must have imported a lot of "white killers"!!! Coloured ponies are being bred to each other more now which certainly brings out more variety. I wouldn't be surprised to see some 'coloured' non tobiano ponies start turning up.

I agree that sabino is probably in the shetties, just not to the degree of other breeds. I mean even having that normal white socks in other breeds are very rare then in shetties shows they are a bit different?

Minis and shetties break rules, white patterns like tobiano behave differently on them, its not been seen like that in "paints" when you see solid leg on tobiano on a paint horse its been shown to be frame that does this, ...........and on the different subject of color legs with white above it this is seen in alot of Tribute to serria family lines, he is frame negitive. its a different subject alltogether thou then what was orgionaly started here but another good one,

Yes different topic, just sort of got on to it with the shires & clydey! Wasn't sure which sort of coloured legs you were talking about!

With the differences possibly more a european vs american bred horses thing rather than mini's vs big horses? Different modifiers, white supressers etc..?

but my head is spinning here in this thread ... lol to many directions.

Certainly agree there LOL!

Cheers

Danni

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Re: Tobiano with solid legs

But if its combined with tobiano could it over ride the tobiano leg white?

This was m point.

A tobiano with a solid leg most certainly has something keeping that white off the leg. In any other pattern without leg white (including splash and sabino) if they have a solid leg it doesn't mean they have a something suppressing the white. That white gene could only be putting that much white on.

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Re: Tobiano with solid legs
Such as???

Such as an ACTUAL white suppressor. Not just some gene like frame that manipulates white, but a gene that actually SUPPRESSES all white. I'm sure you're aware of horses that have been dubbed "white killers" or erasers. These horses almost surely have had white suppressors.

.

So you are thinking, a white suppressor "wrapped up" inside the Frame gene, that seems to express in Frame, but could also be present inside (as it were) other patterns???

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accphotography
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Re: Tobiano with solid legs

Nope. I mean a SEPARATE gene. Like sooty or something (just any random gene) except it's SOLE purpose in life is to suppress white. It could be completely unrelated to frame. Frame may have it's own method of restricting leg white. IME the suppressor gene I'm talking about suppresses more than leg white though, and that goes against frame's MO. However I suppose it's possible it could just be linked with frame in some lines (thus passing with it regularly, but not necessarily always... think Rowdy lines). But that's definitely not part of my original thoughts... I think it's its own thing.

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