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They have to be chestnut, right?

tensio August 15, 2012 August 15, 2012

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OK folks, we have a debate going. We have 4 morgan mares of varying shades of chestnut. One "black" chestnut, 2 liver, and one dark chestnut. The sire of foals out of these mares is chestnut. Confirmed. He's a warmblood. Of the foals (which are 3 months old), 2 have turned liver chestnut. The other two are throwing us. One was born coal black and has stayed that way. A very experienced breeder swears he is a throwback to the grandsire, who is black. However I don't see how this colt could possibly be black, genetically. He HAS to be some sort of chestnut, right? Maybe an exceptionally dark black chestnut? His dam, by the way, is the dark chestnut mare. The other foal that is confusing us is a filly that was born chestnut but has shed out to reveal pure black hairs in the majority of the mane and tail, black points from hoof to knee, and what is clearly ermine on a patch on the hind foot. This filly MUST be chestnut too correct? Is she just perhaps a carrier for the black points and will shed those out to return to chestnut? Do chestnuts have ermine? Her dam is one of the liver mares. Is there any way ever that you don't get chestnut from chestnut x chestnut? I just don't see how! Thanks

tensio Wed, 08/15/2012 - 10:34

Here is the "black" baby. He's only a couple of days old in this photo...

CMhorses Wed, 08/15/2012 - 12:17

Are you sure the mare pictured is not wild bay? That certainly looks like a black foal. Other possibilities I can think of are extreme sooty, sire isn't really the sire or the sire/dam is a chimera and is passing on DNA of a horse that is black based. Also, I could see a foal possibly shedding out this dark from sooty, but I've never seen one born that dark from sooty.
I'd really love to see pictures of the mares, foals and stud.

Daylene Alford Wed, 08/15/2012 - 14:24

Yes, if both parents are chestnut the foal should also be chestnut. That is the only possibility. I also agree, that the mare looks dark chestnut and the baby looks black.

The first step I would take would be to color test the foal and the mare. Although rare, there have been cases of horses that look dark chestnut testing bay or black. The next step would be to verify the paternity of the foal.

tensio Wed, 08/15/2012 - 16:21

Thanks for the input, we are so confused. The breeder followed the semen from stallion to container to mare and swears she is 100% sure of the paternity. Who do you recommend for colour testing?

And here are some photos of him and the others! I don't have an adult photo of the stallion unfortunately. He is by the dressage stallion Lingh, who comes up all over google. He strongly resembles his sire but is bright chestnut.

The filly with no white markings is the one who is now starting to show the black points. You can maybe just see the beginning of the black mane in some of the photos. The other two are turning liver (you can see the raccoon mask at the washrack!)

Thanks again

tensio Wed, 08/15/2012 - 16:24

I forgot - is ermine possible on chestnuts?

tensio Wed, 08/15/2012 - 18:54

Not as an adult, the owner hasn't posted any photos. Here is a foal picture though.

Crias Wed, 08/15/2012 - 21:42

I would've interested in seeing the sire grown up, but he looks suspicious to me with his dark ear tips and dark mane.

CMhorses Wed, 08/15/2012 - 23:38

I would probably test at UC Davis
http://www.vgl.ucdavis.edu/services/hor…

I know morgans are known for having extremely dark sooty horses, but I would red factor test the black and bay looking foals. Even if the breeder swears on the paternity, there is still a chance of chimerism on the stallion, and that could explain why he is throwing black based foals while appearing chestnut, but thats a really rare possibility, but I wouldn't rule it out until the foals have been extension tested and then DNA tested if they come back as Ee.

Daylene Alford Thu, 08/16/2012 - 07:04

[quote]I would've interested in seeing the sire grown up, but he looks suspicious to me with his dark ear tips and dark mane.[/quote]

I agree with this...You say the sire is a confirmed chestnut?

tensio Thu, 08/16/2012 - 08:44

That's what they say - I am going to see the owner today though and will ask if he has ever been tested. I doubt it. It seems to me the easiest explanation would be that the sire is actually some sort of bay, or that the black colt is really an extremely dark black chestnut (though that doesn't explain the ermine on the filly). I thought he would have been born lighter and shed darker if this was the case though. I'm voting bay stallion, somewhere, somehow. Will let you know if they decide to take it to testing... thanks!!

tensio Thu, 08/16/2012 - 12:40

The stallion tested bay and the mares' owner was not aware. "Mystery" solved, and so simply. Thanks!

tjuri Thu, 08/16/2012 - 19:36

WOW! As for the stallion's foal pics: All I can say is don't look at the coat but look at the ears!!!!!!!!! Thanks for posting these pics!