Silver bay???

How old is he?

I suspect you're seeing sabino in the mane and tail.

I can't see your pictures very well sorry, but i too suspect that it could be one of the pinto genes that are causing the light in the mane and tail - have you got a larger picture please?

I will see if I can find one. I am not home so I can't just go take a pic of him. He is 17 now, but has been this way since he was a baby. His mane and tail hair isn't white mixed in, it is actually silver hair. His legs kind of get blondish in the summer time when they get bleached out.

I'll try to get on finding a pic - thanks for your responses :)

Yip, bigger pictures needed. I'm thinking "baby bay flaxen" at the mo-this can last awhile.

I don't *think* you'd see baby flaxen in a 17yo.

Sabino can cause true silver hairs mixed in in the mane and tail, individual hairs, not clumps.

Ok here are the ones I could find on my hard drive of him.

[img]http://www.brokenspade.com/100_0417-345…]
[img]http://www.brokenspade.com/100_04392-31…]
[img]http://www.brokenspade.com/33460008.JPG…]
[img]http://www.brokenspade.com/shadowbutt.J…]

The second picture I think you can see his silver legs really well. The rest you can see his mane and tail. I apologize for the cruddy last 2 pics, we had moved from Cali to Alabama a couple months before and he dropped a bunch of weight so I was taking pictures so I could make sure he was gaining it back. In those 2 you can see how his legs get bleached out from the sun. I wish I was at home to get better ones. I'll try to see if I can get some taken for me.

Like I said it doesn't really matter. He's old and a gelding, but it would just be cool to know what would cause a bay with silver points. The silver gene is the only thing I have found that is close. Would the parents have had to show the silver for it to be passed on? Or can it hide?

Based on the first two pictures, I think you may have a wild bay. A wild bay is a bay who never gets black points all the way up to the normal area and stay a bit off colored on the legs. I also find they usually have a slightly unusual body color and very often have mane and tail "guard hairs". That's what I *think* I'm seeing on your boy.

ahhh ok I will have to look that up I have never heard of it.

It's funny he is 17 already and I have never thought to ask what would cause it. It has just always been cool to have a unique colored bay. LOL
Thanks for the input - I really appreciate that :)

Are those his parents in the photos??? The brown mare and the black overo stallion??

yes maam

Do you by chance have any other photos of them?

So strange. IMO you shouldn't have been able to get anything but a brown or black out of that cross (well, and chestnut). To get a normal or wild bay is very, very odd.

Of course this will be fodder for all the people not on the brown bandwagon, and it actually has my head spinning a little I admit.

Oh DCS... where are you? :laugh1

hoooooo ya.... lol :HB :lol:

Now I just wish he wasn't 17 so we could test his parents. :laugh1

He's an alien!!! hahaha
I don't have any more pics of them - both are long gone. The stallions name was Raiders Silhouette, and the mare was a TB mare out of the Berseem line. I think she was actually a dark bay which would be like 65% chance of getting another bay. I am just kind of puzzled about this silver mess...

This is what I've found so far:
Wild Bay:
The palest shades, which lack specific English terminology found in other languages, are called wild bays. Wild bays are true bays with fully-pigmented reddish coat color and black manes and tails, but the black points only extend up to the pastern or fetlock. Wild bay is often found in conjunction with a trait called "pangare" that produces pale color on the underbelly and soft areas, such as near the stifle and around the muzzle.

All the sites I have found say that they still have black mane and tail but the color doesn't go up their leg as far. I understand the sabino silver hairs but where'd the silver legs come from?

Well there is no real test for wild bay so no definition of it can be 100% accurate yet. In my pretty wide experience with researching as many wild bays as I can find, MANY of them have alot of lightness in their manes and tails. The silver legs is part of the wild bay as well. It's not so much a color as a lack of color (black in this case).

That mare looks waaaaaaay to dark to be a bay based... IF you believe in brown, which I do. Your horse is shaking my beliefs ever so slightly though.

Here is one VERRRRRY interesting tidbit though. The stallion could have been a smokey black. If that's the case, your boy could have cream and that could be totally messing with his color.

Based on the appearance (and pedigree) of the parents, I think the silver gene is highly unlikely.

Interesting!!!
Well like I said, the silver gene is the only thing I could find that came even close. If the wild bay thing causes the silver and the sabino can cause the silver mane and tail then I will accept that. LOL

As far as his mama goes I have been told since we owned her that she was a dark bay. So that is all I know. Raiders Silhouette wasn't smokey he was black as black, not homozygous, but definately black.

I never thought about brown... I have noticed that some places where you can choose a horses color it doesn't have brown listed, like on ad sites and stuff. Never thought much about it. I always assumed it was a color, but never gave a thought as to what qulaified as brown... I mean I've never had a desire for a brown horse LOL

My horse is Casting Shadows
Sire: Raiders Silhouette
Dam: Brettanetta
http://www.allbreedpedigree.com/casting…" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
Some of the dam's pedigree doesn't say a color, but I see Berseem says dark bay/brown and some other bays before him.

Well being Thoroughbred is enough for her to easily be brown. :lol: She really *looks* brown to me. Many people don't use the term brown though, only dark bay.

Smokey black's don't look any different than regular blacks in many cases. You'd never know it just by looking, only by testing. His sire was palomino so the pedigree is definitely there for it.

If Shadow (barn name?) was mine I would definitely be testing for agouti (and maybe brown as well) and cream, possibly silver. Cream would be the priority for me though.

Brown = Dark bay by layman definition just FYI and as for the current tests available

SMokey black is Black + Cream, but it(cream) dosent show.

Just to clarify one thing. There is no test for bay, only a test for not bay and thus there could be other genetic variations we can't test for (specifically) yet.

If it bothers me enough to test him I will. There really is no point as a gelding really doesn't do much for my breeding program! If you are really curious about it I can get it done, if it will benefit any research or theories you have. My mom lives near UC Davis, and we are good friends with the director of the equine facility there - so it really is no biggie if you are curious.

I thought smokey black looked... smokey black! Not black-black. You are right though, the palamino is there.
Can cream hide? I thought that it was there or it wasn't. Like if Shadow has it then he would be buckskin??????

I wish more and more every day that I had kept him a stallion, for selfish reasons. He is getting old and once he's gone I won't have anything left of him. As you can see by the pictures he's been my best guy since he hit the ground. I just hate time sometimes.

I really appreciate all your input!! Thanks so much!!! I really like this forum and I shall stop by here more often :) I happen to be a color genetics junky, learning as I go...

well you know, he could be a dark liver. that's a possibilty.

You have a point TCF. A very good point. Hmmmm.

Well of course I would LOVE to see him tested. I'd love to know as much as I can about him... but I completely understand that there's no true *need*. :lol:

yeah, but then I went to the website, and his main picture on there screams bay. his points are very prominent.

http://www.brokenspade.com/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false; > Paint Horses > Horses

Oh WOW! Yeah that's not chestnut. He actually looks perfectly normal bay there. Hmmm.

I didn't even think about that picture because it didn't show the silver as it is a very dark picture, but yes it does show how the points go as high up as they should. It is definately silver though, it has been since he has been born and has not gotten lighter or darker as he has aged. Still a wild bay you think???

I think I am going to get him tested. Tell me which tests you would like to see done and I'll send in the request!

Well I don't think a wild bay would have points that high. At this point I'm probably going to lean to sabino as the cause of pretty much everything. The bay out of brown and black still mystifies me though.

Cream can not hide, but sometimes it's just not obvious. There are lots of cream horses out there that don't look like what they are genetically.

I would probably test for agouti, cream and silver. And if you're willing (maybe after you get the other tests back) test for brown at Pet DNA (they are the only ones offering brown right now). I'm pretty sure you don't need to test for extension, but you never know.

Ok I sent in the request and my mom will take care of the rest. Give it a couple weeks and we shall see what happens.

I thank you all again for all your input and ideas. I hope I can find this thread when the time comes LOL
I will see if she can get some more pictures for me - some good ones.

Sounds awesome!! Thanks for being willing to test!!

oh he is certainly a lovley colour & a nice boy too :love !! hard to know without testing whats goin on there :D

I cant wait to read about his results

In the Big Horses Silver can easily express as dark as this, BUT based on the colour of his parents and his pattern, I would guess he is Wild Bay + Sabino (on Frame)