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SEAL Brown - discussion.

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thorwood
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SEAL Brown - discussion.
Here you go ACC. Bay mare from two seal parents. [attachment=1]mimi april2006 2.jpg[/attachment] As a foal with mum, sire is the same colour as mum. [attachment=0]mimi and nenah.jpg[/attachment]
dakotakdq
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Re: SEAL Brown - discussion.

beautiful bub. Is it common to get bay from seal brown as genetically sale brown is bay as well? (genetically that is)

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Fledgesflight
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Re: SEAL Brown - discussion.

That's an awesome example!

lipigirl
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Re: SEAL Brown - discussion.

Yes Dakota is right, Seal brown is just another shade of Bay...lovely foal BTW !

Maigray
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Re: SEAL Brown - discussion.

Pet DNA Services claims to have found the actual mutation that produces the color and to be able to test for it.

Jenks
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Re: SEAL Brown - discussion.

Is seal....dominant over regular bay? So the filly got the two regular bay genes? It's the same locus I assume? It just doesn't make sense, I'd think that there would be a lot more seal bays? Or maybe there are?

RiddleMeThis
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Re: SEAL Brown - discussion.

Regular bay is supposedly dominant over "seal."

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Jenks
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Re: SEAL Brown - discussion.

So how do 2 seals make a regular bay? The seal somehow got dropped? How does it work?

RiddleMeThis
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Re: SEAL Brown - discussion.

So how do 2 seals make a regular bay? The seal somehow got dropped? How does it work?

That is the question isnt it? :laugh1 It SHOULDNT happen....if seal bay exists, and if regular bay is dominant over seal bay, which some people will SCREAM until their lungs burst that it is.

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Jenks
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Re: SEAL Brown - discussion.

So what does Pet DNA test for?

RiddleMeThis
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Re: SEAL Brown - discussion.

So what does Pet DNA test for?

At one point it was a marker for seal bay. Now who knows, whether its a marker or the supposed actual mutation. He has not published anything or said anything about it.

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Jenks
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Re: SEAL Brown - discussion.

I'm having a deja-vu. This pet dna place has done this before? Not published findings, but claims to have found something?

TwinCreeksFarm
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Re: SEAL Brown - discussion.

Nah, same discussion (except 20x more lengthy...) that we had on the other board.

rabbitsfizz
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Re: SEAL Brown - discussion.

Brown, as far as I am concerned, is Bay....that mare looks dark Bay to me, and that is how I would have registered her...loads and loads of TBs are that colour....Bay!!
I had a mare I would have called Brown, she was chocolate bay all over, no points no pale nose, no flank colour, just a fairly dark bay but all over, mane and tail the same colour, everything.
She was registered as Bay, though!!
Long time back I had a Cob mare that was the colour of an After Eight mint all over...lots of Sabino white, really pretty mare...what would nowadays definitely be called a "gypsy cob"...I never bred from her and there was no colour DNA testing in those days but I would lay money, in hindsight, that she was either a Smokey Black or a very dark Buckskin!!

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Daylene Alford
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Re: SEAL Brown - discussion.

Since this discussion seems to happen over and over again I'm going to sticky it to the top of this forum.

accphotography
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Re: SEAL Brown - discussion.

I believe sooty can play a part in the deception sometimes though. What may look like a seal may actually be a sooty bay. Don't get me wrong, I FIRMLY believe there are *actual genetics* seals, but I think some that look that way may just be sooty (though I think it's rare).

I won't let a fly in the ointment like this adorable foal convince me seal doesn't exist, but I will let it make me question the theorized order of dominance. However I have seen enough browns out of two bays to believe the theory. I'm just not sure how this foal fits with things. For what it's worth, I find the foal is an unusual color herself.

To an extent I think we just have to agree to disagree until there is more proof. I'm in the camp of agouti being multiple allelic and seal being a separate allele from regular bay and wild bay.

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Jenks
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Re: SEAL Brown - discussion.

There absolutely has to be something else. Bays all test bay, but there is something else. I can't buy that it's all sooty, but that is at least something else to it rather than another type of bay.

accphotography
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Re: SEAL Brown - discussion.

Thank you Jenks. I agree. It's nice to have someone who sees what I see (I think). :lol:

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rabbitsfizz
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Re: SEAL Brown - discussion.

OK, so, if Bays all test Bay, what do Browns test?? ;)

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Morgan
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Re: SEAL Brown - discussion.

I'm with Acc. There are too many different things that can mimic seal like sooty bay, fading black, heck even a "black" (sooty) chestnut with socks to make it easy to know if youre really looking at one.
The mare does look very very seal but could we have a picture of the sire? and breed?

accphotography
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Re: SEAL Brown - discussion.

OK, so, if Bays all test Bay, what do Browns test?? ;)

Bay as well, same as a wild bay would. That doesn't mean they're not different. As has been mentioned before, the current agouti test ONLY tests for the complete recessive (non agouti/black) allele. That means there could be any number of other alleles in there. The French study didn't find them, but they point blank said it was possible there were other alleles there. Point being, all variations of bay will test A_ _ at this point, but that doesn't mean it's not actually 'At', 'A+_', 'AAt', 'AA+', 'A+At', etc.

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Jenks
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Re: SEAL Brown - discussion.

Ya. It just might not be as easily defined, but there IS a difference between a black bay and a regular bay. What the gene is? Don't know, but there HAS to be something to it genetically whether it be some type of limiter, enhancer, whatever.

Monsterpony
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Re: SEAL Brown - discussion.

How do you differentiate between a dark/sooty bay and a brown?

.

Daylene Alford
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Re: SEAL Brown - discussion.

I thought that with the French Agouti study they specifically looked at seal horses and found not other mutations at Agouti?

Monsterpony
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Re: SEAL Brown - discussion.

I believe they looked at a few browns in the study and didn't find anything, but the sample size was small and they left it open that more research was needed before ruling out any chance of multiple agouti alleles.

.

accphotography
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Re: SEAL Brown - discussion.

Exactly... they left it open.

How *I* differentiate between a dark sooty bay and a seal brown: I don't. I'm not entirely convinced there is such a thing. (This will not be a popular theory, I am aware.) I believe MOST of the horses people think are sooty bays are actually browns. I have *never* seen a bay that looked sooty to me. I'm not sure I've ever seen a brown that looked *genuinely* sooty. Frankly, I'm not sure sooty works on black bases unless it has a modifier to darken (namely cream as I firmly believe sooty does not effect dun, don't know about champagne or silver but I think no to both). I also think brown is a beautiful mimic of sooty often times. I've seen horses that looked like the perfect example of a sooty buckskin (odd shading, dapples and all) test negative for cream and "positive for At" (the At is just a throw in, point being she did not have cream). So no, I don't really think there are sooty bays. I think there are "normal bay"s that come in many, many, many shades and depths, and then there are browns. I personally believe most of the time I can see the difference, but of course there's no proof of that either way at this point so I could be proven *dead* wrong when Michal gets done. However, if he's onto something real, I'll be right behind him as I see the same visual thing he does (based on the horses I've seen him test).

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Fledgesflight
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Re: SEAL Brown - discussion.

I have no idea on how it's inherited--but I firmly believe in Seal Brown/Brown or whatever you want to call it.
Sooty comes and goes and is not so apparent with a foal coat is how I would differentiate between two.
Thorwood- do you have the mare's and sire's sire and dam photos to post?

accphotography
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Re: SEAL Brown - discussion.

I have no idea on how it's inherited--but I firmly believe in Seal Brown/Brown or whatever you want to call it.
Sooty comes and goes and is not so apparent with a foal coat is how I would differentiate between two.
Thorwood- do you have the mare's and sire's sire and dam photos to post?

Exactly. I agree. That and I find it almost always shows it's marbled self when it's present. I am not even close to convinced it can do a whole body the same color dark look (like the supposed "sooty" liver Morgans).

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NZ Appaloosas
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Re: SEAL Brown - discussion.

How *I* differentiate between a dark sooty bay and a seal brown: I don't. I'm not entirely convinced there is such a thing. (This will not be a popular theory, I am aware.) I believe MOST of the horses people think are sooty bays are actually browns..

That's where I'm the opposite--I don't believe "brown" as a colour in and of itself exists, but I do believe "seal" or "pangare" exists in and of itself. Too many "browns" just look like they are either funky chestnuts or funky bays.

Diane

accphotography
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Re: SEAL Brown - discussion.

When I say brown, I mean seal. They are one and the same for me.

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NZ Appaloosas
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Re: SEAL Brown - discussion.

Ahh, okay then :angel

Diane

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