Medicine hats...

I've seen a lot of medicine hats that at least look only sabino, it's like the stage right before max, they of course have dark eyes. All the rest I've seen are some combination of tobiano with splash and/or sabino. I really dont know how frame would work into it, I dont think it would so much help make a medicine hat as hide in the chaos of the other patterns.

V is splash, tobiano and sabino. both parents tested LWO negative.

OK since the subject has come up and I am in a very good mood (watching Paul O'Grady can do that to you) I shall attempt to explain [i]why[/i] tovero is a pointless stupid obsolete term (told you I was in a good mood!!)
OK, what does "tovero"tell you??
That the horse has Tobiano and ....what??
What colour is it??
What pattern is it, because, as we have just seen, it could be white all over with a partial medicine hat!!
On the other hand what do you glean form this description..
"Black base Tobiano, with Sabino and Splash"
OK, what do you expect from that???
A Black and White horse with face white and possibly a blue eye??
And how hard is it to say??
The main reason I [i]loathe[/i] the term is because I have seen it used too often to make it look as if the horse is worth more, as if "tovero" makes it "rare" (and yes, I have seen a "rare" chocolate tovero" advertised...it was a Splash...but Oh No, it was a "rare tovero" (actually as far as I could work out it did not have Tobiano).
"Overo" is a pretty obsolete term altogether, as well.
If we dropped both terms and stuck to the correct terms and descriptions life would be a lot easier.
After all, Sabino is no closer related to Splash then it is to Tobiano, so why is it lumped in with it??
We have [u]no[/u] history in Europe of using this term for any other pattern than Frame, as we have indigenously, Splash, Sabino and Tobiano.
Now usage of "pinto" instead of our equally pointless "skewbald" and "piebald" (and very ugly words, too) would be a step in the right direction, but importing pointless terms to confuse people and trick money out of them does meet with my approval :( :roll: ;) !

OK, back to our usual programming.......
Yes, I agree that Frame does [i]not[/i]have to be present and I have seen horses that are mainly Sabino be medicine hats, but in all the cases I have seen there has also been tobiano present.
That stallion is a Red Rock, is he, looks it anyway, and I would call him a partial Medicine Hat at least, but to a purist he is not truly......he does have colour in side the other ear, but both ears [i]should[/i] be covered by the colour.
It's a bit like "palomino" ...from a purists point of view they should not have blue eyes, but obviously some do, and are still genetically palomino.

Here's the problem with dropping "overo" and "tovero"...the registries. Unfortunately, for most people, the first experience they have with obtaining genetic information is the registries. And as long as the registries remain using "tovero" and "overo", we will continually have people using that terminology.

As a case in point, I had someone arguing with me that because their chosen breed registry did not have "smokey creme" as a colour choice, but did have "perlino", there was no difference between the two. It was "written in stone", and that was all that mattered. The actual genetic makeup being different had no bearing on [i]anything[/i], and so smokey creme is "non-existent".

And to make matters worse, this person was also relying on someone who supposedly was a "genetics expert" since they were teaching equine courses, including apparently some sort of breeding/genetics course, at a college. That's a hard mentality to overthrow, and I think our best bet is to work within the registries we belong to, to try and get them more genetically correct.

Here on this board, we are probably best served by gently reminding people that registries are using archaic terms and have not caught up with the onslaught of new genetic information that is now available.

Diane

The registries may use certain terms but that doesn't mean we have to use them here. Otherwise we'd be calling silver blacks chocolate palominos and light palomino Welshes "cream".

I agree, but those colors are known. There are times where too many thing are unknown.

[quote="rabbitsfizz"]
That stallion is a Red Rock, is he, looks it anyway, and I would call him a partial Medicine Hat at least, but to a purist he is not truly......he does have colour in side the other ear, but both ears [i]should[/i] be covered by the colour.
[/quote]

Hi,

This is my first post here, and I know very little about color genetics...so go gentle on me. ;) I've been wondering about the definition of "medicine hat" since seeing one particular foal (photos below). Other than the red on his head, he's basically white in color. But he doesn't have a full 'cap,' which some websites mention as part of being a medicine hat (some don't).

Would this adorable foal qualify as a medicine hat?

http://www.barbaralivingston.com/galler…

http://www.barbaralivingston.com/galler…

And how about this one, who (obviously) has more color on its body?

http://www.barbaralivingston.com/galler…

http://www.barbaralivingston.com/galler…

Thanks so much, in advance, for any information! :)

The former is definitely a "medicine hat". I suspect dominant white, or maybe even frame on that one. The second one might be considered one, but with all that roaning I'm saying maximum sabino and guarantee in a few years you'll never know he had a hat. :lol:

WELCOME!!! *hugs* I hope you love it here as much as we do!

welcome, Gander!

I don't think there is a definite definition of "medicine hat". It is like most descriptive terms and will mean different things to different people.

That being said....if I remember correctly according to the book "The Medicine Hat Stallion" by Marguerite Henry aren't medicine hats supposed to have a chest shield and flank shield?

Welcome to the forum Gander!

Some say the medicine hat, a chest shield and a flank shield, however some also say PURE white except for the hat. It depends on which source you look at. Which is why some genetics people cringe at terms like these. Frankly I don't mind it as it's an easy way to describe the overall appearance of the horse in short.

Thanks so much for the kind welcome and thoughts! I very much appreciate both.

I just Googled 'medicine hat' with 'flank shield,' and there are a few sites that mention both as being in regard to medicine hats. I sort of remembered that from Marguerite Henry's story when I read your post, admin.

I spent much of the evening reading over the 'Beginning Genetics' article on this site (great article), and then it was off to Wikipedia to read further about tobiano and overo and frame and...well....everything spot-related. :o Definitely confusing!

But, regardless, it's sure fun to TRY to make sense of it all! :) Thanks again!

LOL! Well I personally don't feel there are many/any GOOD sites out there that discuss the white patterns in detail, accurately (IMO of course). I'll get to that section of my article sometime in the near future hopefully. I'm not going to say it will be perfect (or even close), but it will be modern and as concise as possible. There is definitely alot to be said about them. :lol:

[quote="accphotography"]however some also say PURE white except for the hat. [/quote]
ME!!! LOL

Welcome Gander. Glad to have new members.

In my opinion, Medicine Hat is only a descriptive term. Like Tovero, it is not caused by a single genetic cause. Again, in my opinion, it describes a colored spot in a hat like position regardless of any other color or lack of color on any other part of the body.

Gander, welcome. 8-)

[quote="Songcatcher"]In my opinion, Medicine Hat is only a descriptive term. Like Tovero, it is not caused by a single genetic cause. Again, in my opinion, it describes a colored spot in a hat like position regardless of any other color or lack of color on any other part of the body.[/quote]

That leads to the thought why it is called [i]medicine[/i] hat. I heard stories of alledged native American descriptives for horses with supernatural powers.
Can anyone confirm that? :?

[quote="vneerland"]Gander, welcome. 8-)

[quote="Songcatcher"]In my opinion, Medicine Hat is only a descriptive term. Like Tovero, it is not caused by a single genetic cause. Again, in my opinion, it describes a colored spot in a hat like position regardless of any other color or lack of color on any other part of the body.[/quote]

That leads to the thought why it is called [i]medicine[/i] hat. I heard stories of alledged native American descriptives for horses with supernatural powers.
Can anyone confirm that? :?[/quote]
American Indians, like the primitive tribes of any part of the world, were often very superstitious. Medicine and magic were synonymous in such societies. They were eager to accredit the unusual with super power. At their first encounter, the American Indians thought horses and their riders were gods. Even as that idea dwindled, the rare colors/patterns still held a mistique.

When V was born I did a little reading and some descriptions seemed to say that with the hat and chest shield was medicine hat and a completely white horse with a hat was a war bonnet. I've allways used them interchangably though for any horse with a "hat"

I think it is a purely descriptive term, as it is not inherited, which is why it was prized so much, it just happened, and could happen at more or less any time, when the right patterns were there.
I understand "warbonnet" to be more colour on the head, coming further down the face, than "medicine hat" which is what it says, a hat!!
As to other markings??
Honestly, I had never heard of it being a pure white horse, only that it [i]could[/i] be a pure white body, not, in either case, that is [i]had[/i] to be.

And, also, there in Ganders post (Welcome, Gander!! :toast ) is the reason I loathe the term "tovero"!! already causing confusion!!

http://www.equiworld.net/uk/horsecare/B…" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
pretty much covers what we've always called it. Medicine hat has a shield, war bonnet doesn't.
Overall though, I hardly hear the term war bonnet, usually just medicine hat. like this: http://www.barbaralivingston.com/galler…" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false; i think would be a war bonnet, but i'd call it medicine hat.... this one though: http://www.painteddesert.net/images/hea…" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false; i just call gorgeous....
*wipes drool off keyboard*

On another forum today someone made the statement that Medicine Hat horses are homozygous for the Paint gene. First off there is more the one Paint gene. :roll: I can understand the theory as it usually results from more then one pinto pattern and so a good amount of MH horses could pass on color but that doesn't make them homozygous. :shock:

[quote="Paintlover"]On another forum today someone made the statement that Medicine Hat horses are homozygous for the Paint gene. First off there is more the one Paint gene. :roll: I can understand the theory as it usually results from more then one pinto pattern and so a good amount of MH horses could pass on color but that doesn't make them homozygous. :shock:[/quote]
You would not BELIEVE some of the things we have heard like that. :sad