Lp Question

Huh. Is that common in appies?

Dont think it is COMMON in appies but maybe not rare - wait for the appy brigade to log in. :booty

haha..i forgot to type my question in the first post.

What causes it? (or is it unknown....which is what I figure I'll get as an answer)
and
Does it seem to occur more often in a certain pattern?

It reminds me bloody shoulder markings....??

[quote="Jenks"]It reminds me bloody shoulder markings....??[/quote]

Yes me too.

Yep it's more like a spot where appy didn't occur, like the bloody shoulder markings are like where grey didn't occur?

I'd say it's common, just we may not notice them on the main part of the body all the time. I see solid legs on appies which when born like that one just have the white pattern on the body, and then as they age they give those near leopard appearences but they will have these solid blotchy legs. There was a Bay mare who had a blotch like that on her hip, they called her varnish roan, but she had some spots on her. Not sure what she looked like when she was a baby.

I looked up some other images and found these.
http://www.kreierkountrypoafarm.com/kis…" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
I've never seen one basically born with it, the ones I've seen shed out and they were exposed as they aged.

http://www.theequinest.com/images/appy-…" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
What do you guys think? I'd think that was a minimal version of the image in the original post.

http://3.bp.blogspot.com/_q_Lz38rjotM/R…" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
Bad photo, but I wonder if as the foal ages, the white patterns it's expressing might end up leaving a shoulder patch.

http://1.bp.blogspot.com/_RJP4NLjwUMw/S…" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
So close, almost a complete cluster of color. Any of these remind you of what they call brockling in cattle? http://doublehelixranch.com/Figure3.1b…" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

But I don't know anything about appaloosa genetics. I worked for a breeder years ago so these are just my observations. >_< I don't dare to even start to understand, I tried, and got so confused. Gonna work on my solid patterns before I try to tackle the whites again.

I have certainly never seen an Appy marked like that in Europe!
I think it may well be related to whatever it is that causes Dalmatians to have black patches (or brown)

Yes they're called mismarks and yes, the genetics behind them is still a mystery. On the commonality...I'm with lipi on that one; not uncommon just not an every-day thing. I can only think of a couple of horses I know about that have them. On the roaning out vs. being "born" with them, I've seen both, so would say that both "types" of mismarks exist.

Diane

Since there are still very few Appaloosa (the breed) animals in Europe, I do wonder if it is related to the breed then??

Could be...the two in particular I'm thinking of are both from ApHC stock...one roaned out to show a big mismark on the neck/shoulder, the other was born with a highly visible mismark.

Diane

Well anything spotted over in Europe basically comes from ponies or German(?) breeds (once Spanish), yes? Here in the states, these 'appaloosas' are EVERYTHING. They are just one big patterned mutt. So your guess is as good as mine as to what contributed to the crock pot. The only the original posted linked, the breeders are calling a Spanish Jennet, which is extinct, but they cross an app with a paso. I still think we've seen these markings before, just may have never noticed them because they are not on the main part of the body.

Pondering again, bear with me. Since appy and grey tend to be the only coat colors/patterns that change a lot, how do we know that this doesn't occur more on other colored horses? Maybe these are the equivalent of the random somatic mutations, but you wouldn't really tell on, say, a tobiano because we expect the pattern to contain solid areas.

Hah! Not bad MP! Not bad at all!

MP I'm taking you out for a drink. That's some good thinking, I like that theory!

[quote="Monsterpony"]Pondering again, bear with me. Since appy and grey tend to be the only coat colors/patterns that change a lot, how do we know that this doesn't occur more on other colored horses? [/quote]

Yeh that's what kind of what I thought when thinking about the grey and appys having them, just don't see it on solid colours. Interesting about the tobi's etc.. too though hmm..

Occasionally we seem them on solids, but that's only when it happens to be a different color, not a different pattern:

[img]http://www.accphotography.com/gallery/d…]

Or these
[img]http://www.patinackfarm.com/images/stor…]
[img]http://www.foaltrack.com/Images/Foal/14…]
[img]http://i114.photobucket.com/albums/n263…]

And this one, though he is most likely chimeric
[img]http://inlinethumb40.webshots.com/45607…]

I would think that the one above the last is Chimeric, as well.
There spotted pattern in Europe?
Not at all sure where is started, it is a chicken and egg thing, but in a number of breeds, not just one or two, some lost the pattern some specialised in it.
Not aware of a German pony breed with it, though, but there probably is!!
The British Spotted Pony Society has been around in one incarnation or another for a few years now.

Historically there were Spanish horses that had the spotted pattern. I know some of those were then bought from Spain in the 1800's and taken to Denmark to found the Knabstrupper breed. Prior to that spotted horses were used in the Spanish Military, so I'd think that through the decades of conquests and expanding their territory, that is how the spotted pattern got in, and then intermingled with everything else. As for ponies, I was thinking of the British spotted pony. There is also supposed to be spotted gotland ponies http://user.tninet.se/~qyv299p/Orusst43…" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false; and And it's thought that until the last century there were spotted welsh ponies running wild. Tho the flag is still out on that one because I've heard researches say yes they still occur rarely, and others say it was bred out. Tho like other breeds that are supposed to be 'bred out' I doubt it has been completely bred out of the breed. The Noriker comes spotted as well, LOL I almost forgot.

Never heard of Spotted Welsh, not ever.
Could have been Sabino/Splash, but not appy spots,..........although, coincidentally(?)the BSpPS had as it's foundation (one of them) a line of Welsh Ponies form the Ypsitty Stud........
I doubt they were running wild (although if you poked them with a sharp stick they would have become quite cross :rofl )
Most of the Spotted Ponies now are Shetland derivatives (and no, there have never been any Spotted Shetlands!!) I am pretty sure you are right about the Knabstruppers...was it not one specific sire?? I know before then they were all colours and patterns......

I thought the original welshes ran free in the hills? I had to research them some time ago, because in my Florida Cracker project, Dr. Cothrans researching showed Welshes being more closely related to the Cracker horse then the Paso Fino was to the Cracker...which blew my flipping mind, and I tried to figure out as to why...and speaking of which, I need to send him off another email, he said he'd have a report on the cracker out this spring, but I think he may still be working on it.

As for the knabbies, yeah the first horse that 'founded' them was a chestnut mare with a spotted blanket. Then I think there was some Fredricksborg (?) blood thrown in there. And like many of the European warmbloods, war and the economy threatened their existence. The registry is strange tho, cause they have all different kinds of knabbies, including pony and Minis. But I get the impression that they are just colored warmblood mixbreeds, because there are other warmblood breeds like the Trakehner thrown in there recently. But then again, warmblood registries just confuse the heck out of me. Where I always thought it mattered that a horse was pure..you can have a horse with 5 different breeds within the first generation and still be considered a oldenburg or something like that. It's like here in America, a Thoroughbred can be used in almost any breeding program, and the offspring would be considered that of the other breed.

They are differentiated though, right? Like the Half arab registry? You can breed a grade horse - or any breed - to a registered arab and the Half Arab registry will register it.... But it's still not a purebred....

I don't think so. At least here in the US they aren't. They finally stopped allowing Arabs to be used in the Appaloosa horses, but QH's and TBs can be used. And that allows all kinds of other patterns into the breed, which is how I think Splash got in there. But from what I can tell with warmbloods, if they pass an inspection they can be approved for breeding in that breed. Which is how there are some brightly patterned and colored warmbloods. And I think if you cross say a TB with a Hanoverian, the offspring will still be considered a Hanoverian. But hanoverian registries have colore restrictions that they have to meet, so even if they get something wonky from the TB, they wouldn't be allowed in their stud book. There is an tobiano oldenburg stallion some where...think his name was Sempatico or something like that. If you look in his bloodline, he's holstein, dutch warmblood, hanoverian, and I think something else. But he's been approved for a few registries to be used in the breeding program. He didn't even come from an oldenburg, but he'll be advertised as such because he was approved.

http://www.allbreedpedigree.com/sempati…" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Actually, I'm pretty sure they still allow Arabians.

unless they changed it back, when I was working with the breeder they didn't allow arabians to be used any more. They wouldn't get registered. Now there are still arabian/app type horses out there breeding, but I distinctly remember them not allowing them. It was a relief to the halter community because you'd get those judges who loved the arab build, which honestly didn't contribute to the breed type at all, if anything it set them back.

*EDIT: Sorry went and checked. They still allow arabians ;_; how disapointing. I could have sworn they stopped allowing the infusion of arabian blood. maybe it was just in halter shows?

I actually quite like the WB registry style. If it is a good enough example of what we want, it can be registered. Form to function and all that.

I agree.

I understand what you mean. But it then becomes pointless to call the horse by that breeds name. It becomes a question of purity, which I understand some may consider overrated, but half these breeds became threatened in the first place by crossing into other stock. So after years of trying to get them back to where they were, it's as if they are regressing. Some of the crosses I don't object to because the breeds basically diverged from the same bloodline. But not when you have a warmblood horse with 5 different breeds in it, registered as a different breed. *shrugs* I don't know, it just doesn't make sense to me. Same thing goes for the registries here in America, just doesn't make sense.

Welsh ponies come in four sections (well, six if you count Geldings and "pinto") A, B, C and D (E being Geldings.)
Welsh Mountain Ponies are the ones that run/have run wild Section A, although farmers may well run Cobs and B's loose on the hills they are not "wild" per se.
As far as I know there have never been any spotted sec A's although the dappled Greys that the breed is famous for may have caused people to think they were spotted??