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Help! No one can tell me what colour Duke is..

dweekthecat February 08, 2011 February 22, 2011

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I've had Duke for almost 3 years. He is a full clydesdale stallion out of a blue roan mare and a black sire. When he arrived as a rescue he looked like this: (note the flaxen/white tail) [img]http://i273.photobucket.com/albums/jj231/dweekthecat/GandolfP20-03-08_1…] Now hes just turned 4 (hes small for his breed due to his rough start) and he looks like this: [img]http://i273.photobucket.com/albums/jj231/dweekthecat/114_1125.jpg[/img] Over the years hes gotten heaps darker and really roaned out, although hes maintained really large latches of a vivid apricot type colour under his tummy, around his joints and what I can only describe as the back of his butt cheeks :D His head has remained unroaned and is a funny light mousey colour with sooty patches. [img]http://i273.photobucket.com/albums/jj231/dweekthecat/114_1146.jpg[/img] He had his first foal on the ground this year and now the foals 2 months old and losing his fluff its obvious hes really sooty (hes bright red bay with a black topline), and hes got a skunktail. Up until now I've just been referring to Duke as a blue and red roan since its the closest description I could come up with. At some point soon I'll get around to genetic testing Duke but I have no idea what I should be testing for? Do you think its possible hes carrying a creme gene? Im also putting up a topic on his foal, cause I'm lost as to what to call him as well.

critterkeeper Tue, 02/08/2011 - 09:20

Duke is more of a stumper, but I'd say bay with splash white (skunk tail, high whites, blaze), sabino and roan (thinking classic roan due to the roaning pattern, but could be sabino roan). Can't say I have ever seen a full-blooded Clyde that carried cream (but then I'm not a Clyde expert), but this looks suspiciously like pangera to me (face, soft spots affected).

Okay fellow members, what are your opinions (esp. our roan Clyde expert, ymwhisle ). Any ideas on this handsome fellow? He has me curious enough to start googling Clydes again... :rofl

lipigirl Tue, 02/08/2011 - 10:17

I wonder if the sire was truely black or dark brown based At - the roan is confusing the pattern too which is prob sabino being a clyde.....well done for rescueing him - have you got any more full body 'now' shots ?

Danni Tue, 02/08/2011 - 17:25

Yeh I say bay sabino as well.

I would reckon either the sire or dam were dark bay/brown based instead of black. The roaning is just due to sabino. As for the light tail, heaps of clydeys get them, in the absence of anything else to call it, I just call it sabino too :D

dweekthecat Tue, 02/08/2011 - 21:05

Thanks for the feedback guys n gals!
I'm wondering if a horse can possess pangara (sp?) and the sooty gene at the same time?
Where I got him from a was a horse breeder who was breeding clyde crosses and was running 2 full clyde stallions who each had their own herd on a HUGE property, pretty much running wild as they would do in their natural environment. I can honestly say that I when I saw Dukes father in late sumer - he'd never been covered and he was still jet black, which is kinda confusing me to the genetics. Also (thinking back) there were a number of young foals there that had come out with either 1 or 2 blue eyes, and the mares were solid coloured. :\
In saying that, I guess its possible that he was a VERY sooty black. Dukes throwing sooty in his foal and his black patches dont fade in summer either..
I also have Dukes half sister (same sire) whos a very dark bay, but most definatly carries that Pangere gene most noticable on her when shes black in winter and has bright apricot underneath particurly around her joints and muzzle. Is the Pangare gene creme related like someone above mentioned?
What colours/modifiers do you think I should test for?

Apparently New Zealand (where I live) supposedly has the purest clyde lines due to its remote location and the fact its an agricultural country they were very commonly used in farms till recently.

Heres some more pics of him..
[img]http://i273.photobucket.com/albums/jj23…]
[img]http://i273.photobucket.com/albums/jj23…]

And this is his half sister: Wooly Mammoth Winter coat
[img]http://i273.photobucket.com/albums/jj23…]
Mid Season
[img]http://i273.photobucket.com/albums/jj23…]
and Summer (shes done a lot of growing this year)
[img]http://i273.photobucket.com/albums/jj23…]

Monsterpony Tue, 02/08/2011 - 21:18

His dam could easily have been brown and not black. Roans can sometimes be more difficult to see the brown on.

Either way, one of his parents [i]had[/i] to have been something other than black because he is definitely brown and you cannot get a brown from two blacks.

Danni Tue, 02/08/2011 - 21:53

[quote="dweekthecat"]Is the Pangare gene creme related like someone above mentioned?
[/quote]

Pangare just really lightnes muzzle/bell/flank hair etc.. I don't see cream at all on him, his pangare isn't even really obvious. Althought it could be it making the soft parts look a bit more tannish rather than red.

dweekthecat Tue, 02/08/2011 - 22:11

[quote="accphotography"]That horse is definitely not black. That's a brown base. I'd be suspicious of cream too. The pattern is DW and probably sabino.[/quote]

Excuse my ignorance but what is DW? lol

So you reckon his sister is a brown not a bay? Or him? I'll put a close up of his brown bridle bits so you can see whats going on there..
I can totally understand why bay must be in his genetics, I'm just not sure how. If it wasnt for the fact his full sister looks excatly like him, I would suggest that maybe his dam cheated on her hubby or something l :flower

If his real bay is the extremely light bay in the photo of him when he was young, and before he got all sooty- its a very strange colour. I dont think Ive ever seen a bay that light.. or at least I probably have but its been misclassed. I must admit, I'm finding the whole horse genetics/colourings thing really REALLY fascinating.

[img]http://i273.photobucket.com/albums/jj23…]

dweekthecat Tue, 02/08/2011 - 23:14

Thanks for clearing that up for me :)

Im only now getting less confused as to the difference between Sabino and Clyde Sabino. Interestingly, the stud farm I got Duke from that ran the Clydes had about 1/5th of their foals come out like a paint sabino pattern to solid colour mares. Seriously wish I knew more then about genetics, it would make a fascinating case study. There were about 60-80 broodmares there that were mostly ex track solid TB's and a bunch of foals at foot.

accphotography Tue, 02/08/2011 - 23:18

"Clyde Sabino" is most likely all dominant white.

I don't think they're bay, but brown, a separate allele of agouti (the "bay" gene). The things that are confusing you are things that are clasically brown.

dweekthecat Wed, 02/09/2011 - 00:42

[quote="accphotography"]"Clyde Sabino" is most likely all dominant white.

I don't think they're bay, but brown, a separate allele of agouti (the "bay" gene). The things that are confusing you are things that are clasically brown.[/quote]

Hmm, thats a good point. I guess for years I've only heard brown and bay horses reffered to as just bay, so I havent adjusted my perspective to see what brown really looks like. Is there a genetic test for it?
:newbie

BTW; I just tend to think of Clyde Sabino as your typical 4 white stockings clyde markings.

dweekthecat Wed, 02/09/2011 - 01:53

[quote="Monsterpony"]There is a test offered by one lab for the brown allele.[/quote]

Cheers :)
I saw that listed on the Colour testing page, but I wasnt too sure if Brown was the same as Seal Brown..

critterkeeper Thu, 02/10/2011 - 09:50

I am betting that it was Duke's "blue roan" dam that is the true brown...and we know dark browns "immitate" as blacks and fading blacks all the time - throw roan in the mix and voila' "blue roan".

Edit to add: Oops, forgot, Yes, seal brown and brown are the same...the term seal is used by some of us for the more obvious browns (black with tan muzzle, soft parts) as opposed to the psudo blacks.

dweekthecat Sat, 02/12/2011 - 02:04

Thanks guys. When I actually 'look' at him now I can see the brown.. of course on one foot theres a short 'chocolate' sock which should have been a bit of a giveaway. To be honest I never really paid much attention to it (I assumed it was a faded black,) except today I noticed his 3 month old foals black stockings at the front are actually chocolate. *facepalm*

I guess my next question would be: assuming he is brown, and some brown traits kinda mimic sootyness - do you think hes a heavily sooty brown? Partly the reason for my question is because of future breeding and what his current foal is doing, he appears to be heavily sooty after shedding out his foal coat. (Mum is a solid bright sorrell)
[img]http://i273.photobucket.com/albums/jj23…]