Fugly has got it wrong again....

Speaking phenotype though, she is correct. People use phenotypes more often than not. All three phenotypes - like it or not the APHA uses the term overo - can carry the LWO gene. The common rule breeders HAD always used prior to a test was never to breed 2 overos. They still do use it, I heard my farrier say it last year. I don't think nitpicking on the true genetics or phenotype description of a Tobi carrying frame is really the focus of the blog entry nor that it will do any good. Testing seems to be the point and that you cannot always "see" it, hence people are stupid for not testing when it's so inexpensive.

I wandered onto fugly but my attention quickly diverted to the story about the stolen horses in Miami that were found slaughtered. http://www.nbcmiami.com/news/local/From…" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
To say I would be *beside* myself would be putting it mildly. I think I would go on a killing spree of my own. :evil:

No KIDDIN'.

Well, no, actually.
If a horse is a Tobiano, and nothing else, it can't carry LWO.
If a horse is Splash, and nothing else....and so on.
The answer is to test and to stop using vague terminology, not rant at people, after all, we all know how easy it is for one to slip through the net.
She is a bit too quick at this, I have noticed....just a few days back she was ranting on about something else that was vague and unproven.
"Just because a horse does not [i]look[/i]LWO does not mean it isn't" I can live with.
"Overo" carries LWO and Tobiano can too" I cannot live with, it isn't true and it is misleading.
Just because she doesn't understand about pattern does not mean that other people should not try to get it right.

Although, as I said, the mare pictured (not necessarily the dam of the dead foal, BTW) was one I would have tested.
Heck, if I was breeding Pintos I would bother to find out what constituted a Pinto, and I would also test all my stock, as Freeland does!!

So you think they are insinuating that all overos carry LWO?

I see your point, but it's just not the point they are going after, and they are trying.....

[quote="rabbitsfizz"]Well, no, actually.
If a horse is a Tobiano, and nothing else, it can't carry LWO.
If a horse is Splash, and nothing else....and so on.
The answer is to test and to stop using vague terminology, not rant at people, after all, we all know how easy it is for one to slip through the net.[/quote]
And this is the problem you have failed to realize. When someone says "Oh that horse is tobiano." It hardly means they are only tobiano. Until I came here and read your rants it didnt even occur to me that people would mean a horse is only tobiano when they said oh hes tobiano.

They ARE Tobiano. Whether thay are tobiano + splash, tobiano + frame, tobiano + every thing else. They ALL are tobiano!

I also agree with Jenks in that she is going by a phenotype description and that IS what most people go by, despite us wanting something to the contrary.

Actually I think [i]you [/i]have misunderstood ....
They are not Tobiano, per se, they [i]are[/i] Tobiano+ whatever.
And Tobiano does [u]not[/u]carry LWO.
Some people really do believe that...did you not know that??
Just as some people believe "overos" all carry LWO (after all it's called Lethal White Overo...isn't it?? They ask)
So it is not just me "ranting" as you so sweetly put it, it is a matter of people not getting it...as you appear not to have done.
Oh well...*shrugs* not really a problem...carry on believing that no-one believes that Tobiano carries Lethal White.
That's OK :roll:

[quote]Actually I think you have misunderstood ....
They are not Tobiano, per se, they are Tobiano+ whatever.[/quote] But still tobiano. And people will call them tobiano because thats what they LOOK like. Despite what you think, or what we want people are going to call horses by descriptive terms. And if you go by descriptive terms a tobiano CAN carry LWO.

[quote]And Tobiano does notcarry LWO.
Some people really do believe that...did you not know that??[/quote] Yes I DID know that. And you will perpetuate that by saying a tobiano cant carry lethal white. The majority go by phenotypic description and if you tell someone going by phenotypic description, in a genetic description that tobiano doesnt carry LWO you are going to perpetuate that.
[quote]
So it is not just me "ranting" as you so sweetly put it, it is a matter of people not getting it...as you appear not to have done.
[/quote]Its a matter of you not getting what people are saying. People use PHENOTYPIC descriptions and they always will. You will perpetuate tobianos not being able to carry LWO if you use genotypic descriptions to people talking about phenotype.

The majority of the horse world is going to call this horse JUST tobiano.
[img]http://www.dreammakerminis.com/pictures…]

And it is a PHENOTYPICAL description and with phenotypical description a horse who is JUST tobiano CAN carry frame as that horse does!

You are both beloved members and are welcome to make points. Be careful not to make it personal. Everyone is entitled to opinion. Fizz is a bit of a perfectionist which a wonderful attribute for one breeding and has a lot of knowledge she has gained from experience. Riddlemethis is thinking logically and sees that a lot people in the world usually think with just their eyes. Both of you are right, so it's all good, yes?

I agree with Jenks. I understand what you are both trying to say.

Unfortunately most people won't understand it if you say Tobianos can't be OLWS positive. They will get the wrong idea and think that because their horse is Tobiano it can't carry OLWS rather then realizing that a horse that has the Tobiano gene can also have OLWS/Frame but that the Tobiano gene can't by itself carry OLWS. Most people don't even understand that Frame is the same as OLWS or that there are three "Overo" genes. Yes, I would like to keep the genes separate but until people have a little better understanding of genes and color genetics I don't think it is going to happen and talking to them as if they do will only be cause for more confusion.

I will always refer to my horses as Tobiano, those that are Tobi of course ;) , when talking with other horse people because most will understand what that means. If they don't carry either Sabino 1 or Frame I can only guess if they have Sabino or Splash. So I am not going to add that into their description. On this forum I will because you all will understand. :)

That said of course it is just my preference and I will try and educate people about color as much as possible but not assume they understand. Little by little all together we can make a difference!!! :HB

Rabbit, I do understand your frustration. I still can't understand why people that have been breeding for years still will use the term colt instead of foal!!! :BH

I would venture to guess that all of us at one time or another had some of these misconceptions and thus should give people a chance. I have no doubt that some day we can even change the registries minds on how to register horses. No more "overos" or "toveros"!!!! :mrgreen:

I'm with rabbit. If people can't understand that a horse can carry more than one pattern, they have no business breeding. This breeder was a registered nurse, right? She can understand it. Everyone who breeds anything that can be positive for frame should be able to understand this before they breed a single mare.

It's tobiano AND whatever else (splash, sabino, or frame)... tobianos don't "carry" lethal white and I would have commented on fugly if someone hadn't beat me to it. I don't think we should dumb things down and spread misinformation when it's really quite simple.

[quote="Sara"]I'm with rabbit. If people can't understand that a horse can carry more than one pattern, they have no business breeding. This breeder was a registered nurse, right? She can understand it. Everyone who breeds anything that can be positive for frame should be able to understand this before they breed a single mare.[/quote]Its not that they dont understand a horse can carry more than one pattern. Its that they use phenotype descriptions NOT genetic descriptions. 95% of the horse world uses phenotype descriptions and it will most likely ALWAYS be that way. Using a genetic description ("Tobiano does not carry lethal white) to someone who uses a phenotype description WILL prolong the thought that if it doesn't look frame it cant be a carrier.

And while yes it would be GREAT is everyone had an advanced under standing of genetics and only used the genetic description to describe their horses, but the fact is they DONT and WONT. Im not going to let horses die, and let people continue to think that its only visible frames that can produce a lethal white because I want the HUGE majority to conform to the minority. It will never happen, and if we want this to be a complete 100% non issue the minority needs to adjust so the majority will understand.

If we make it so that people have to learn what each pattern is, and what it does for them to understand what we are saying we do no one any favors but ourselves. SOOOOO many more people will test if we can just say any horse is a potential carrier rather than Tobiano doesnt cause lethal white, only frame overo.

And this is the problem [quote] tobianos don't "carry" lethal white and I would have commented on fugly if someone hadn't beat me to it. I don't think we should dumb things down and spread misinformation when it's really quite simple.[/quote] Its NOT simple to many. I know people who cant understand E and A and you want them to understand the difference between all the different patterns? Its NOT misinformation to say it my way. Its a phenotypical description. A horse who APPEARS to be just tobiano can carry lethal white. A horse who APPEARS solid can carry lethal white. There is absolutely NO misinformation in that sentence. Now saying to someone who describes what a horse looks like "Tobianos can't carry lethal white" IS misinformation.

[quote]A horse who APPEARS to be just tobiano can carry lethal white. A horse who APPEARS solid can carry lethal white. There is absolutely NO misinformation in that sentence.[/quote]

You are correct, of course. What I don't understand, however, is what is so difficult about phrasing it like "a tobiano can [b]also carry[/b] lethal white (or frame, or OLW, or whatever you want to call it)" rather than simply "you can get a lethal white foal by breeding two tobianos".

[quote="Sara"]
You are correct, of course. What I don't understand, however, is what is so difficult about phrasing it like "a tobiano can [b]also carry[/b] lethal white (or frame, or OLW, or whatever you want to call it)" rather than simply "you can get a lethal white foal by breeding two tobianos".[/quote]There is no difference, and normally thats how I say it. But saying "Tobiano doesnt carry lethal white" IS a problem. When you say this "LWO is ONLY found in Frame, no other pattern carries it, no other pattern can carry it." it IS a problem. A HUGE HUGE HUGE problem.

I agree with RMT. When someone calls their horse a "tobiano", they are describing the horse's appearance. If you go telling them that horses who appear that way can't carry frame... problem. There is no way to say what you're wanting to say without expressly clarifying you mean GENETICALLY and not phenotypically. By the time you get that out you've lost a good portion of your audience as your words fly right over their head.

NOBODY is saying that horses who appear tobiano can't carry frame.

All that needs to be explained is that horses can have more than one pattern. No genetics knowledge necessary.

I just had a conversation with another lady at our barn who was saying how nice it was that Frodo carried the overo gene. :shock: LOL. People do say what the animal resembles most.

After I explained that Frodo isn't overo, she explained the genes were the same. I explained Frodo has splash and overo isn't carried in Welsh. I told her I can breed Frodo to 100 OLWs mare and never get a lethal white foal, but two OLWS would thow 25% lethal white foals.
She then said "I think 25% is too high. It's not that many". LOL Then proceded to tell me that overo was a resessive gene so wouldn't show up all the time. I agreed and had to draw a picture of the four squares and Oo's. LOL. It was fun pretending to know a little about it.
She still didn't believe it was 25% though.

[quote="Sara"]NOBODY is saying that horses who appear tobiano can't carry frame.
[/quote]Really??? Cause this sure seems like it [quote]LWO is ONLY found in Frame, no other pattern carries it, no other pattern can carry it.[/quote] (Thats a direct quote BTW.)

While I know she means the tobiano GENE isn't associated with LWO people who go by phenotype descriptions WONT. And that is what the majority go by.

I could not find that quote anywhere in this thread. Where was it?

Again. Simple. Horses can carry more than one pattern. If frame is a possibility in a given breed, test, no matter what the horse looks like. No need to dumb it down.

Andrea, I got a little lost about who was saying what in your post, but frame is not recessive. The lady at your barn was probably calling it that because it doesn't always show the obvious pattern.

It was in the post on the fugly blog. The second comment.

And again you want the majority to conform to the minority and use genetic descriptions and they arent going to.

[quote]LWO is ONLY found in Frame, no other pattern carries it, no other pattern can carry it.[/quote]

That is going to cause MANY people to think they are safe breeding their phenotypic tobiano only.

[quote="Sara"]
Andrea, I got a little lost about who was saying what in your post, but frame is not recessive. The lady at your barn was probably calling it that because it doesn't always show the obvious pattern.[/quote]

Frame itself is not recessive, no, but lethal white foals are... sorta. They only happen if they're homozygous, so it acts very similar to a recessive gene in that manner. Of course we know it's an incomplete dominant, but that's not something the average person will grasp quickly.

You snipped one sentence out of a very long post. I give up -- you can have this thread.

[quote="Sara"]You snipped one sentence out of a very long post.[/quote]
And like I said they would 95% took it EXACTLY like I said they would.

Personally I think it was good to correct FHOTD. I don't think it was wrong or unnecessary but at least the point of her blog entry was to tell people to TEST their horses. On to the other discussion.

I am not saying we need to dummy things way down. Just that we need to realize the average horse person has very little to no knowledge when it comes to horse color and genetics. I agree that it is easy to understand that there are three different "overo" patterns and only one of them is OLWS/Frame positive because they are one and the same gene. And it should be easy for them to understand that tobiano isn't connected genetically to OLWS/frame but that a tobiano horse can also carry other patterns, frame included. However if we don't learn to at least word something so they can understand it rather then confuse them even further I am afraid that RMT is right and we will be doing harm rather then good.

Correct me if I am wrong but I don't think that any of us where born with all this knowledge!!!! We learned it, granted some faster then others, yet we seem to forget that and can't understand why others are not yet able to comprehend what we are talking about!!! Thus we should help, not hinder, others in their pursuit of equine color genetics!!!

Ahem, ok, I will get down off my soapbox now. :oops: :roll: All this said. We have great bunch of people here with loads of info and knowledge like no other place that I know. Discussions like these are good as it helps us to see where others are coming from. I think that is the point. To always try and see things from the other side of the fence. :toast

Personally, I would love to see that "blog" shut down. I find that person to be crass, crude, and more than bit of a know-it-all. If it doesn't fit what she thinks is "right", then no matter what someone else might say, she's right/they're wrong, even if she's totally clueless about what the breed standard might actually be.

In this particular case, I think she is doing a great disservice since she is not making a proper distinction between the frame gene and the tobiano gene, and is not stating clearly enough that while a horse may not exhibit frame patterns (i.e., the frame is so minimally present or being overrun by other patterns), there could be a possibility that frame exists. Nor is she doing anything to educate people into realising that the frame gene IS the so-called overo lethal white gene. And given the APHA's tendancy to lump anything not tobiano into "overo", this is something that really needs to be hammered home with people.

Diane

[quote="NZ Appaloosas"]Personally, I would love to see that "blog" shut down. I find that person to be crass, crude, and more than bit of a know-it-all. If it doesn't fit what she thinks is "right", then no matter what someone else might say, she's right/they're wrong, even if she's totally clueless about what the breed standard might actually be. [/quote]

I agree with you there. Well, mostly. People are entitled to their opinion and she does have some good things to say but I do find the way she says things to be harsher then necessary at times. There are also some things that I disagree with her about. You hit it on the head when you said "If it doesn't fit what she thinks is "right", then no matter what someone else might say, she's right/they're wrong."

I think it needs to be taken up with the APHA first. LWO is deadlier in a way than HYPP and the AQHA demands testing for that.... Not sure if that's the correct answer, or route but it would be quite nice if they were just tested for registration and no one could hide or lie about results. Then to force frame out of the "Overo" lump since it has been genetically id'd.

[quote="Jenks"]I think it needs to be taken up with the APHA first. LWO is deadlier in a way than HYPP and the AQHA demands testing for that.... Not sure if that's the correct answer, or route but it would be quite nice if they were just tested for registration and no one could hide or lie about results. Then to force frame out of the "Overo" lump since it has been genetically id'd.[/quote]

I agree, there is no reason to not test when registering a horse except maybe if it is a gelding. To be able to know what horses do and do not carry frame would be wonderful!!!!!

That's a good thought Jenks!