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[quote="accphotography"]It's so sad really. I really have a respect for their knowledge and ability... but I despise their marketing.[/quote]
Ditto! The whole, one time opportunity to learn this secret, just pay now credit card accepted, type thing sounds so slimey! It obviously works on enough people though or they wouldn't market that way!!
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You respect their knowledge?
Why?
As far as I can see they are both just a couple of well marketed horse abusers.
I shall never forget what PP did to that show jumper and Linda would not know "contact" with a horses mouth if it jumped up and bit her!
They have, single (or should that be double) handed given "natural horsemanship" a really bad, gutter level, name.
I do not respect them I despise them and all they stand for.
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Well we obviously have 100% different views on that situation then. That was NOT abuse IMO. That was a horse with a SERIOUS attitude problem that got a needed, serious adjustment. Was the horse injured? No. Can the horse now be bridled without all of that? Yes. Mission accomplished. I'm sorry but sometimes force is necessary. Surely you have learned that after watching horses interact with each OTHER. A "lesion" on his lip was a whole lot kinder than some of the alternatives and a whole lot kinder than what one horse will do to another if they do the wrong thing. If the owner had been able to handle it themselves they wouldn't have gone to Pat.
I'm not going to get into this argument. I don't know how much of their stuff YOU'VE watched, but I've watched a tremendous amount. Enough to know that one instance was NOT the norm and enough to respect the ability. I strongly suspect you're judging a book by it's cover.
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ok I didnt know about that incedent so I went and looked it up, including a cell phone video. That was NOTHING like what one horse would do to another, retraint of that sort is highly stressfull. A bite from one horse to another is done in an instand, no mental strain. Mearly an "Ow, danggit, Imade the boss mad, shouldn't do that again". This horses had NO idea why this man was after his head, he was defending himself from an "attack". It is possible to train a horse like that gently but it takes weeks, not one evening. The equipment is not the issue, the way it was handled is. I have used a war bridle setup before under the lip but it was used with preasure and release much like a bit over [i]several days [/i]in order to convince a yearling to accept a needle in the neck without moving (she would otherwise flip out at the needle pinch and nearly kill the handler or herself). If she moved away from my pinch I applied light pressure to the lip which was more uncomfortable than the neck pinch, when she stopped I released and stroked her, at no point did she rear or fight and she was able to be given shots very calmly after.
edit: we have a weird auto censor :? you cant say "p r i c k" :lol: even if that's what needles do, right?
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I know I probably am, it just rubbed me the wrong way. Personally, I've gotten very rough with some horses, I know some horses need it. But I probably wouldn't have drug it out quite so long in front of an audience. I did watch his statement about it, and I can see one point that he made. If he had had a mic on and had explained what he was doing, it might not have looked as bad as it did.
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ACC is talking about endospink
http://www.youtube.com/user/endospink
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[quote]Was the horse injured? [/quote]
Uhm, YES! The BHS vet documented the bloodied lesion that the gum line created in Catwalk's poor mouth. The fact that he later was able to be competed wearing bit and bridle says a hell of a lot more about a horse's ability to live in the now AND the work of the humans who obviously dealt with Catwalk after that so-called demonstration. ANYONE who has to use a gumline/lip chain needs to go back to horse basics 101, IMO.
As for Linda knowing anything about being on the bit, well, a) I have to wonder why it has taken her so long to figure this out, and b) isn't she and hubby supposedly into the whole "bitless is best" thing, so why is she trying to figure out how to get a horse to go on the bit?
Diane
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Going to bring it up again I'm afraid - did anyone see the display of Linda hitting the half blind horse round the head with a metal clip and chicken dancing at it while it tried desperately to lunge because it thought that was what she wanted?
Since I saw that I have very little time for Parrelli and the lack of explination was dreadful - all I saw response wise was a lot of people leaping up and saying 'You don't understaaaand and unless you pay $$$ for all the videos and get initiated into the level X circle of awesome horsemen you never will.....'
The follow up of a public demonstration of how to bridle a headshy horse using a war bridle and yanking was appauling - perhaps it had to be done though I would disagree but the place to do it was not in front of an impressionable public who may just go home and try it out on their slightly nappy pony.
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Yes.
I have sat through all the Parelli crap that I have been able to, enough to know that Linda does not know what she is talking about and that Pat is an abusing moron!
ACC I know as well as you do,possibly better, that force is [i]sometimes[/i] needed, and have, obviously in my lifetime, [i]sometimes[/i] used it myself. A well deserved, and quite hard whack on the nose when a colt bit me at a show (drew blood on my thumb) nearly got me investigated by the RSPCA and drew a formal complaint to the BMHS (which they dismissed)! And this man gets away with abusing a horse continuously in a public place, and someone pays him to do it!
I have NO idea why no-one stopped him, we stopped the Walking Horse display! (all the horses looked lame, they were padded, but not as high as BL, however we were disgusted) I wish I had been there, you would not have been able to stop me and PP would have found me one heck of a lot harder to restrain than an out of it's mind with fear young stallion!
I have never, ever, resorted to a lip chain, on anything , ever. I have handled big and small stallions most of my life and there is just no way I would ever keep entire anything that needed a torture device to restrain it. We here, in England, in Europe, did not actually [i]know[/i] about this method so well done PP for introducing what has to be one of the most barbaric pieces of equipment to have come out of America.
At the time, I and many other people offered to take the horse and get it accepting the bridle by humane methods. I am not kidding here, I was more than willing to go and put my "money where my mouth is" on this one, I can still work a big horse from the ground as well as anyone, it is only the riding I cannot do. I am absolutely certain I could have worked out what was wrong and got it well on the road to being sorted without resorting to the horrific abuse used in that demonstration.
I saw no bad attitude, I saw a desperate, fearful animal being harmed because that moron was failing to get his way.
Linda and the half blind mare? Do NOT get me started, I flagged it as animal abuse on YT, I do not know if it got it taken down, I was not the only one!
I am not just "against NH" I knew nothing of it until Cathy on FHOTD started on about it then I went and looked at the videos and could not believe what I saw. I honestly believe that man has copulated up far more horses than ever he has helped, and the stuff he does with foals? For crying out LOUD!!
I have always thought quite well of Monty Roberts, but still listened to the "anti" things that people said, and the shortcomings of what he preached. Max (Richard Maxwell) seems to have taken it a stage further, coupled with a great deal of common sense, and he is not above whacking a horse that needs it, on TV if it is relevant, although he always warns and explains at the same time, he even let a colt he was loading throw itself to the ground on the ramp! But all he had on it's head was a leather halter and a lunge line. After it had got up it sort of shrugged and said "well, that didn't work, did it?" and walked on the box.
So no, of course I have no problem with a well deserved smack, I do not know why you assume that you are the only one who has ever dealt with truly difficult entires!
So, we shall, indeed, have to agree to differ on this one, if PP ever returns I hope to have him successfully prosecuted by the RSPCA, let's see what the devotees have to say about that!
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[quote="NZ Appaloosas"]ANYONE who has to use a gumline/lip chain needs to go back to horse basics 101, IMO.
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Well I guess living in the US racing industry has numbed me to the [i]horror[/i] (not my word for sure) that is gum lines/lip chains. It's so unbelievably common here. No... I don't now and never will think it's abuse, especially not when used judiciously (not saying that demonstration was, just saying I have NOTHING against them).
[quote="lillith"]Going to bring it up again I'm afraid - did anyone see the display of Linda hitting the half blind horse round the head with a metal clip and chicken dancing at it while it tried desperately to lunge because it thought that was what she wanted?
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Yes I saw it. I watched it over and over again. I completely disagreed with you guys then and I still do. I've handled horses with behavior just like that. Sometimes it's me or the horse... that was the case there in my eyes. She was trying to do too much at one time (as opposed to "step at a time"), but it was most certainly not abuse or uncalled for in my book.
[quote="rabbitsfizz"]Yes.
I have sat through all the Parelli crap that I have been able to, enough to know that Linda does not know what she is talking about and that Pat is an abusing moron!
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It's amazing to me what some consider abuse. I'd honestly like to see some of these horses in the hands of some of the people that consider their methods abuse.
I also find it amazing that when the name Parelli is brought up the only two videos that come to mind are these two and the two that everyone chose to watch and that went viral. How many actually see all the excellent videos they've put out? I doubt many as they'd rather find reason to criticize.
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Because, obviously, those are the two that stick so firmly in the mind because they are so abusive. I hate to see horses terrified.
And I would be happy to prove that firm handling could do what that moron has to use abuse to do...as I said, I offered, many, many appalled people offered.
England is, basically, appalled by it . We are not perfect, no-one is, but I just hope he never comes back, we can do very well without him!
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...I do like how people in England neuter their mice more often than here in the US. Try asking mouse-fancier people here and they just look at you like it's the most absurd thing they've ever heard.
I have not seen either of these videos. :( I don't like watching scary things so I'm not sure I want to... How frightening are they to watch?
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I can say, I've used a lip chain before on many different occasions. Mist absolutely needed one to have her feet done at first. Now we did work with her and eventually get her to the point where she was safe. She didn't like it one bit, but she would stand there quietly and take it. But to get to that point, we had to use a chain. I only have so much strength, Mist knew very well how much stronger than me she was. I know I'm not one to call someone out on their techniques, I've kicked a horse square in the gut, walloped one in the head with a bucket, popped one on the poll with a piece of pvc, and yanked one onto its back and scared it half to death. Sometimes it's do or die and my life is honestly worth more than the well being of an animal, no matter how well loved they are. But I'm not a trainer and I don't claim to be. The video with the blind horse, I would have commentated and explained better what was going on. It's film, you can do that. The deal with Catwalk, I would have probably let him win that round, it seemed like an issue that would have better been worked out in a more intimate setting, in baby steps. I've seen NH go right, I know some really nice well behaved horses who were trained NH and dressage. Heck, Riot, the paint arab cross I rode this summer, he would side pass over to the fence for you to mount. It was nice. But I've also seen horses with lesions from people trying to put their saddles like parelli does it, horses who were scarred for life from total greenhorns deciding they're suddenly master trainers because they watched a few videos... I've said it before, I think some of the ideas are great. But I really disagree with how it's marketed. I think it's good to educate people, but so many take his word as law and get really overzealous. Plus, I'm not going to buy a halter for $85 that I could make myself for under $5. I like some of the NH saddles I've sat in, there are some really nice treeless saddles that if I could afford I would totally buy just to use on occasion. But I don't like the bridles I've used, I don't know what to do with 30 feet of reins. I dunno, to each his own. I think that if you take what works for you and apply it, sure go ahead, but it's when people follow only one person's opinion and don't open their eyes to the things that have worked so well for years and years and years that I start really taking issue. So, as a rule, I avoid it. Especially with the locals I've met that have used it, it tends to end up as rednecks jumping their horses bareback over oil drums and talking about how magic it is.
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I don't agree with lip chains. It's a bandaid on the real problem: Lack of training.
PP being a "natural" horse trainer shouldn't have to resort to such tools. There is no reason he had to "fix" Catwalk right then and there. He had every right to let people know that problems like this don't need to be fixed in hours/days. He took a shortcut and people called him on it. Rightfully so!
LP and the mare... Was LP on the blind side or the seeing side?
I've used the method of jerking the the lead rope like that with the wild ones I've worked with. They learn to stay at my shoulder where I like them to be.
Endo, from what I've seen, works with the worst cases and I've really only seen one video of that I would call outright wrong.
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Some horses can be perfectly well trained but have a **** fit at an given time. Sometimes there simply isn't time or the place to drop everything and train right then when you KNOW the horse knows and is just having a fit. That's when the restraints come out for me.
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Sorry, no one, ever will convince me that a lip chain/gum line has a place in horsemanship. If you need that 'extra' control, get a bitted halter, like they use for English in-hand classes for stallions. Krickette, I'm sorry you felt the need to use a gum line for Mist, my first choice would have been to mildly sedate the horse, and work slowly, even if it meant booking the farrier for the whole day to only work with Mist.
But the fact remains that PP caused a lesion in Catwalk's mouth, which bled, and THAT removes any legitimacy in how PP used the gum line.
Diane
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If it is not there, you cannot use it. Lip chains are not there, for me, so they are never, would never, be used.
Sedalin, however, is there and that is what is used, far too often, here to restrain a horse. It would not be possible with Catwalk as he is a stallion, but valium works well, short term, and could have been used to sedate and desensitise him with a bridle. On the other hand, maybe he just has an ear problem, either real or imagined. Welsh ponies are ear shy, and I had to work my way round that hundreds of times. Without restraint, without sedation.
As a last resort I would use a bridle that has a buckle between the ears, so the bridle can be put on without pulling the ears through the headpiece and the browband- you would be AMAZED at the number of even quiet well mannered horses that do not like that.
I have no problem with twitching a horse lightly on it's nose as a short term measure, I do it myself (although, to be honest, with the Minis you really only need to used a tarpaulin clip!) and have always done. I have gelded, standing up, HUGE wild as the hills, Welsh Cob colts, with just me, the Vet and a twitch. The twitch does not work on pain, it works on endorphins, and I have never yet scarred a horse. When "restraint" causes scarring, it becomes abuse.
Krickette, had you worked longer with your horse you would not have needed a lip chain, it is as simple as that. It is a short cut, no more.
As to the mice, well, I talked my boss into neutering her male gerbil and it died! It is hard to get the anaesthetic right, but it is neccessary when dealing with pack animal like gerbils and rats.
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That sucks that it died. What sort of anesthesia was it? Here in the lab we have a ton of rodent surgeries and we've had a 100% recovery rate with isofluorane (we actually did a study comparing the different types available.) If you ever get a rodent fixed, make sure it's iso! That stuff knocks them out super fast and they pop back up in less than a minute.
/derail
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It's so sad really. I really have a respect for their knowledge and ability... but I despise their marketing.