Stallion and Young Rider

On what circuit may a junior ride him?

I've been curious about this since I want Cory shown and he may not show in hunters or jumpers with a junior up. I'm not even sure if he may be shown in hand by a child which is ludicrous because he is one of the mellowest and easiest to handle in my barn. So I can send a kid into the ring with Diana, who will strike at your face if you push her buttons, but not wee Cory...

Beautiful Horse and Rider!

No, sorry I wholeheartedly support the "No stallions with children" rule having seen what idiots can do with a stallion and a child.
Can you believe that the Assistant DC of
our Pony Club wanted to change the rules so her 13 year old child could ride her Dartmoor stallion at our PC show??
Now I have had Stallions all my adult life, and a two year old could lead Rabbit round the ring behind a mare in full season....BUT, and it is the "BUT" that is in ALL stallions that makes me stand by that rule.
I would not like to have seen what would have happened to the child if she had ridden up behind a mare in season, or if she had fallen off and the stallion had got loose, as I have seen happen, and try to mount a mare with a child on board???
To allow a child to manage any stallion in a show situation is, to my way of thinking, suicidal.
And I speak as the owner of perfectly behaved, laid back, riding stallions, as well as Minis.
Ride Cory yourself..... ;)

25 years ago we had a stallion get loose from the side of a horse box at the Shetland Nationals and run towards the Lead Rein ring.
We headed him off and then he made for the returning driving Marathon !!
We encircled him and he tried to mount Rabbit....luckily [i]my[/i] stallion knew what "whoa" meant, and two men hauled him off in mid mount!!!!
That was a 38" Shetland, what could an Arab do???
Even a perfectly behaved horse acts differently when it is loose.

i gotta say i agree with rabbit on this one. i am not concerned so much with the jr handling the stallion, as i assume the jr has handled this stallion regularly and that its [b]responsible[/b] owners wouldn't let it show if it was a tool, but i am concerned with my kids not paying attention to the fact that it is a stallion and being able to keep their pony away from it. even the best mannered stallion will cover a mare if she is showing in heat to him and if one of my kids wasn't paying attention and happened to stop beside a stallion and the mare she/he was riding started showing in heat to that stallion, would i trust my kids to get their mare away form the stallion or even be aware of the fact that it is a stallion? uhmmm....NO!

in Canada stallions can be ridden by jr.'s in dressage shows and i think some breed shows, but not in regular h/j shows.

I do see your point about stallions but the juniors I would be thinking of for Cory are in high school, not tiny children. Maybe there should be different age limits for different sizes -- not that all small stallions are easier to manage than all large stallions -- but in an average situation size does help. The current limit seems so arbitrary since it allows any adult to show a stallion and some juniors are much better handlers than many adult amateurs. Everything described above could also happen with an idiot adult!

Rabbit, I'd ride him myself since I am definitely light enough but I can wrap my legs around him and touch my feet under his belly! It looks so silly! You could ride him for me. ;)

I just remembered the rule for showing stallions in jumpers. A junior MAY show a stallion in jumpers but [i]not pony jumpers[/i]. How silly is that?!

Juniors are allowed to show stallions on the Arabian circuit. The owner said this pair would aim for the JTR 13 and Under division. In addition, the Arabian circuit has a seperate National Show for Youth Riders.

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I don't think stallions should be ridden by kids - because yes there are great kids out there who know how to ride and can handle a stallion but they are in the minority - what RF said reminded me of an instance in a Lipi show where a stupid large adult man rode his stallion too close up behind a gelding - he mounted with the other rider on and damaged her back for life - that was an adult - so yes no kids with stallions. Also its in some kids natures to show off and that is when it could all go horribly wrong !!! [-x

I have no trouble with juniors riding stallions AT HOME. For the most part I am not worried about whatever junior is riding the stallion, I would be more worried about the other riders. I have been to a few shows... not many... but what I have found is that most of the riders have no idea of PERSONAL SPACE!

I was watching mom ride one day and there was a girl also riding in the same area... she said out loud she didn't know what side to pass on :? Then more people came into ride... mom was so put off that she had to leave the arena. She didn't feel safe. So even with mom riding a mare she didn't feel safe, not because of what she was doing, but because the other riders have no idea of space. Just think how much worst it would have been with a stallion in the mix. :?

Gender of horse is not an issues to me , there are just as many evil mares and geldings ...only someone with half a brain can figure out who can handle what and there will always be someone out horsed in a show no matter what the gender of the horse is. Its not a stallion issues to me at all. There are juniors that can handle stallion and there are adults that cant handle stallions, jsut a case by case basis..its up to a show manager to ask someone to be excused if they are a threat to the rest of the crowd.

yes, but the difference is that JR riders are riding stallions with OTHER JR riders....and adults are riding with other adults. i am MUCH more aware of what is going on around me then a jr of any age is. I can keep track of which horse is the stallion and keep my horse away or do what i need to do to get out of trouble if i need to. a child/teen can't...i have seen some pretty intelligent teens do some pretty stupid things because their brains are not mature yet...they are more like a 2 or 3 year old horse...just not ready to make smart decisions ALL the time. I am not saying that all adults are any better, but saying that because there are bonehead adults means that kids should be allowed to do something potentially dangerous doesn't fly with me. Horses are dangerous enough, i would rather not have testosterone adding to the danger when there are kids around.

an evil mare might kick, a cranky gelding might bite, but a hormonal stallion, well, anything goes.

ApHC circuit, juniors can show stallions but not in junior/youth classes. While I personally do not see the problem with some youths showing some stallions, I would hate to see it become a wholesale anyone can show anything type thing, as I have seen way too many adults who shouldn't be handling stallions, let alone kids...

Diane

[quote="all that sass"]
an evil mare might kick, a cranky gelding might bite, but a hormonal stallion, well, anything goes.[/quote]

My two worst injuries came from a gelding...in one he decided, mid-jump (we were doing follow the leader over fences without stirrups or reins), that the mare three horses in front of him was his, and the horse behind her was too close, so he was going to do something about it...

Oh, and before anyone says what why we doing that, it was something our trainor had us do, to learn to control our horses with seat and legs... :booty :laugh1

Diane

i think MOST people have had their worst injuries from mares or geldings....the number of mare and gelding riding horses FAR outweighs the number of stallions (not by as much as i wish it did, but it does)

unfortunately, coaches are just like everything else...there are good and there are bad....i would never let a whole school ride around without reins and stirrups - i break out in hives just THINKING about that. give your coaches head a shake. there are ways to learn those skills without endangering the lives of your paying students.

The first time I fell off a horse was when an instructor (a new one which had never worked with me before) decided I should ride without reins or stirrups. Never mind the fact that I was 9 years old and still in the horn gripping flop like a fish at the trot stage of learning to ride. :roll: Limped for 2 days, thankfully I'm a "that didn't hurt" kind of person so it didn't put me off riding.
I agree with the show rules about no kids on stallions to protect them and everyone around them if they are not ready but maybe they could do something like a kid of a certain riding level could take a stallion handling test or something. I mean I could handle and ride a nice one by about 16, trained my first horse to ride at 14 and I didn't start as early and with as good instruction as some other kids I've known.

So. When has an arabian stallion hurt the child showing it? Like everything, a parent needs to make the decision.

I'm not sure if it's more prevalent in this breed because it's allowed, or simply because I'm on the breed boards, so I tend to hear about it more. But it's not terrifically uncommon to see - even in leadline classes, I've heard of stallions being used before (thought that really IS rare).

This is just one example, but I know the owner of RB Cavalier took him on as a 12 year old - http://www.rbcavalier.com/welcome.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

She once told me he gave a terrific example of a bucking bronco with his owner when she met him, then let a 7 year old ride him in only a halter and lead. She chose him because she had a horrendous accident on her own jumper and was never supposed to ride again. When she got on him, she said he carried her as if she were "made of glass." She showed him for 5 or 6 years, somesuch, on the breed circuit, before retiring him. I think all of her videos with him feature her riding him sans tack at some point.

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Edited to add - it's not something I would [i]ever[/i] endorse to the public at large, but it is allowed with this breed, so it's done.

I've read everyone's responses and I'm still with Heather on this one. Actually, most of the comments seemed to strengthen the argument that a blanket ban on juniors showing stallions is silly. It takes a good handler of any age to show a stallion but the way it is now, good junior handlers are barred from showing stallions in most cases, yet adults who are new to horses, have terrible judgment, or are just poor handlers may show them. Again, I understand that show organizers, judges and stewards had to draw the line somewhere and an age cutoff is easy to understand and enforce, but it seems unfair.

I've seen some shows that just have a "no stallions" rule to avoid the issue entirely!

Oh, regarding leadline, I've seen Welsh breeders who use their stallions in that class and it is allowed because technically the adult is the handler, not the child. It's a nice way to show off a stallion with a good temperament.

very lovley piccys!
they look great together, but I am a bit worried about letter kids ride stallions out in public.

I agree a stallion handling exam now that has some weight to it !

Never going to happen!!
I do not nor have I ever felt safe riding in a class with young people on stallions, it is a minefield!!
Kids just LOVE to show off...Oh, Look everyone, I'M on a stallion UGH!!!
OK, so I have never been hurt by a stallion as all the stallions I have ever had have had the UTMOST respect for me, I can take Rabbit anywhere by his forelock and before you say 'Yes but he's 28"' let me remind you that horses do not see size and he once put our middleweight hunter over two fences and up on a grass verge by the road, then left him there and came home!!!!
I have also been in a Mini class with a misbehaving stallion, there were 40 of us in that class and my partner and I were the only ones who saw the danger and got all the thirty people behind us out of the ring.....I told the steward we would not come back til the Judge had dismissed the stallion, which she did...now that was a senior handler, had it been a junior the horse would have been loose on a crowded showground.
I have been in Arab classes with kids on stallions and it is MAYHEM..they do not have the experience as a rule to manage things when they go wrong, and a blanket ban, which annoys a few, is just fine with me!

Maigray, to get back to the original pictures...why is the horse so badly overbent??
Surely you cannot show them like that??
How do you judge movement with the horse head on it's chest??

[quote="Sara"]I've read everyone's responses and I'm still with Heather on this one. Actually, most of the comments seemed to strengthen the argument that a blanket ban on juniors showing stallions is silly. It takes a good handler of any age to show a stallion but the way it is now, good junior handlers are barred from showing stallions in most cases, yet adults who are new to horses, have terrible judgment, or are just poor handlers may show them. Again, I understand that show organizers, judges and stewards had to draw the line somewhere and an age cutoff is easy to understand and enforce, but it seems unfair.

I've seen some shows that just have a "no stallions" rule to avoid the issue entirely!

Oh, regarding leadline, I've seen Welsh breeders who use their stallions in that class and it is allowed because technically the adult is the handler, not the child. It's a nice way to show off a stallion with a good temperament.[/quote]

I agree. If someone banned me from being able to make my own decisions, I'd ban my participating in their shows.

That is the style in several divisions and I also think it's a general trend across all disciplines (except for saddleseat).

This is quote from George Morris in [u]this[/u] month's issue of Practical Horseman, which is a magazine for English style riders: [quote]The fashion today in ALL disciplines is to overbend the horses' necks, both vertically and laterally[/quote]

In any event, I know the stallion has already been a champion in the country english pleasure division, but I can ask the owner if they are switching him to western. He's really quite a nice horse.

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I don't get Practical Horseman so I have not read the article that quotation was plucked from but I have to assume George Morris meant that in a BAD way. Dressage horses are severely penalized for being overbent and hunters are supposed to go slightly in front of the vertical. I can only speak for open circuit however.

Don't get me started or we are heading towards the Rollkur dicussion !!! :evil:

If it's all the same with you I'll stick with our way of going...at least this way you have a chance of seeing if the horse is sound!!
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;)

I have not purchased these yet so you have to see them with the watermark on...

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This is how I was taught, and how I train.

[quote="all that sass"]i think MOST people have had their worst injuries from mares or geldings....the number of mare and gelding riding horses FAR outweighs the number of stallions (not by as much as i wish it did, but it does)[/quote]

Sass, this was in the middle east, and I was riding a stallion as much as a gelding...my normal mounts were a little chestnut arab stallion named Tartar, "my" bay gelding named Khandan (no one else at the stable could ride him, so the grooms all called him mine), and a grey stallion named Sousa. Tartar only gave me thigh "strains" as he had a trot like a wind-up toy, and you had to post triple time. Sousa once gave me a love bite.

With our current herd, I can feed Ace and Casey from the same bucket. I can't do that with Rio and Gimps, the two geldings. I think I just get along with stallions better than geldings... :laugh1

[quote="all that sass"]
unfortunately, coaches are just like everything else...there are good and there are bad....i would never let a whole school ride around without reins and stirrups - i break out in hives just THINKING about that. give your coaches head a shake. there are ways to learn those skills without endangering the lives of your paying students.[/quote]

Trainer was ex-cavalry, and this was a few (many) moons ago. While in some aspects I do cringe over what we did, in other ways, I wish more coaches and trainers would do this sort of thing, then maybe we'd have more better riders in the young folk...I serously doubt I can be bucked off from the average horse throwing a tanty (doesn't mean I can't fall off tho! LOL), courtesy of the "crap" my trainer put me thru. To this day, as unfit as I am, I can still climb up on the back of a 16hh horse without a mounting block, can still touch my toes without moving my seat and shifting my balance, and still reach the horse's mouth without shifting balance :HB And 50's a lot closer than not... :angel

Diane

[quote="Sara"]I have not purchased these yet so you have to see them with the watermark on...

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This is how I was taught, and how I train.[/quote]

We're supposed to be looking at how the horses are going, right? Cuz cuz cuz I really feel the need to point out a couple of things on the kidlet there, Sara....but don't want to offend... :oops: and well, there are things that are "in fashion" right now that just don't make any sense to me... :BH

Diane

Yes, no comments on the kids please. They ride exactly how I want them to ride and how their hot pony mares dictate so if you have a problem with them, you have a problem with me. ;)