She may be right . . .

He could be homozygous tobiano given his parents. And horses as minimally marked as him have tested positive for homozygous tobi. As far as tovero, it's just a blanket term [i]usually [/i]reserved for horses with so many patterns they meld together. Honestly with his face marking he could be a frame carrier. Won't know without a gene test.

Those were my thoughts too, but she's certain that he's a tovero and therefore CAN'T be a Tobiano. I'm not really that worried about getting him tested, so it's not a big deal. The thing is she claims to be one of them know-it-all's and will constantly undermined people to show off what she 'knows'. I just wanna reach through the screen and smack her most of the time. I think she needs to come here and get put in her place, but I don't want to bring 'drama' here. It's so nice without it. :)

Ok I think I get what you mean. So she is saying that because he's "tovero" he can't be tobiano? Tovero means tobiano is present but with other patterns as well. Being told he isn't tobiano would make me frustrated too. He's a textbook minimal tobi. He may not be exclusively tobiano, but he is a tobiano.

Thank you! See I do know what 'I am' talking about. Lol!

Okay, so I got a new one for ya'll. This is from a totally different person.
She told me that she raised 'true' tobianos with blue eyes. When I tried to 'nicely' inform her that there has to be some other pattern variation in the bloodline, she bluntly told me I was wrong. She then told me that the blue eyes were not related to the overo pattern, but to how much white was on the horses face.
In my mind, using my memory and what I've learned on here, I thought that she was seriously mistaken. From what I've learned 'true' tobianos have dark heads (or a small face marking) and white legs. Overos (or any other pattern besides tobinao) have lots of face white and dark legs (or white depending on the amount of white being expressed).
Correct me if I'm wrong, but her horses HAD to have had some amount of the overo pattern to have enough white on their faces to have blue eyes! Am I wrong in my assumption???

Yes you are correct. Tobiano has been found to not cause blue eyes. As of know the only known white patterns to cause blue eyes are the two overo patterns of splash and frame. Hopefully the breeding stock in question have splash and not frame so that no Lethal White Overos are produced.

They may have misinterpreted a statement from a tobiano researcher who suspected that homozygous tobiano could cause white face markings and blue eyes, but the researcher failed to take into account that this effect could easily be caused by another gene unrelated to tobiano in the research population. Splash was the most likely culprit. If two tobianos with minimal splash were bred together they could easily have a tobiano with bold face markings and blue eyes since splash is a partial dominant and expresses more with 2 copies. ACC knows more about that story of the researcher than I do though.

Whew! So glad to know that I'm not crazy. This lady runs a 'rescue' just east of me and I was borrowing her trailer to take my dad's mare to auction, so I didn't really want to argue with her until AFTER I returned her trailer. I imagine I'll never deal with her again, borrowing the trailer OR talking on the phone. Her trailer made it back in one piece (like I promised) and I put it back 'almost' where it was when I picked it up. I imagine she'll move it to where she wants it though. Oh well. Hopefully next time I need to haul a horse I'll have my own trailer, again.

I have run into more than one "expert" in the color genetics field who has even less actually knowledge than I did when I started with this group over 7 yrs ago.

One of the first things I learned was that there was NO tobi in QHs (contrary to a bunch of "experts") and that tobi does not have face with...face white is contributed by one of the other pinto patterns: frame (LWO), splash, sabino or dominate white. With the OP minimal tobi, I personally would suspect frame in there somewhere due to the one solid leg (frame loves to take white off of the legs) and the jagged edged blaze (although sabino loves jagged edges too). I wouldn't worry about testing except for any breeding stock...(I tested my stud and all my mares -- even the ones that weren't being bred just in case they made that mad dash across the fence - rofl)

[quote]face white is contributed by one of the other pinto patterns: frame (LWO), splash, sabino or dominate white[/quote]

Actually sabino and dominant white aren't thought to cause blue eyes either. This actually makes sense since all of them are kit mutations.

[quote=admin][quote]face white is contributed by one of the other pinto patterns: frame (LWO), splash, sabino or dominate white[/quote]

Actually sabino and dominant white aren't thought to cause blue eyes either. This actually makes sense since all of them are kit mutations.[/quote]

I wasn't even thinking about the blue eyes...another reason to lean toward frame.

Sorry Critter you didn't mention the blue eyes, I was reading things into what you had posted :ymblushing:

Admin, you might understand what I'm talking about. I had a discussion with someone on sheltie color who was convinced tri-color (similar to brown in horses but with a white pattern) was recessive to bi-black (black with a white pattern). I tried explaining that it wasn't the case.

Didn't help that this person only breeds collies who don't have bi-colored dogs allowed, so I wasn't believed when I said that 2 bi-colored dogs will never produce a tri because tri is dominant over bi. They were also convinced that sable shelties are red based (dog version of common bay). I gave up, it wasn't worth trying to explain when someone is so strongly convinced in spite of other reputable sources and breeding examples showing they were simply misinformed.

Actually, Critter, he doesn't have a soild leg on him. Here's another pic without hay in the way of that leg.

[IMG]http://i360.photobucket.com/albums/oo49…]

and one of the other side that shows it goes up a little higher on the inside of the leg.

[IMG]http://i360.photobucket.com/albums/oo49…]

He does have the inkspots on his fetlocks and black stripes going vertically down from them in his hooves. Except for the rear right foot, it's competely white. He also has his 'paw print' in the white on his rump, seen in the 2nd pic of his rump.

[quote]Admin, you might understand what I'm talking about. I had a discussion with someone on sheltie color who was convinced tri-color (similar to brown in horses but with a white pattern) was recessive to bi-black (black with a white pattern). I tried explaining that it wasn't the case.[/quote]

Dogs have dominant black at the K locus so you can get a tri out of two blacks if the parents are both heterozygous K[sup]B[/sup]. Dogs also have recessive black like horses but it is much rarer and only in a few breeds.

The KB gene in shelties is apparently pretty rare. I guess that's the exception to the 'rule' for that breed. :rofl Thanks so much for the info admin!