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Sara reemerges from the hole she has been living in...

Sara March 17, 2010 February 22, 2011

Forums

Hey, I just popped in for a quick bit to ask you to look at a few pics. This is a horse I want to look at for a student but she is almost five hours away so I want to know if there is anything alarming about her before I go. The photos are not good (pretty, but not conformation photos). These were taken last summer when the filly was about to turn three. She has a late birthday. In the group shots she is the darker one with less white. [img]http://lh4.ggpht.com/_FCt2uISRYy4/S6GqOWqpK9I/AAAAAAAAAWE/9GDdTjNBsjo/s…] [img]http://lh5.ggpht.com/_FCt2uISRYy4/S6GqOJJrlsI/AAAAAAAAAWA/kE_RvQdKqS0/s…] [img]http://lh6.ggpht.com/_FCt2uISRYy4/S6GqOH-o5pI/AAAAAAAAAV8/Qv2_GGF1M4g/l…] What I think I see is a good, sloping shoulder, lots of bone, nice and broad across the chest. She has some immaturities I would expect from a filly who is going to be big. I don't care that her head is plain. I think she has a nice expression. I'm not going to post what she is just yet. What do you think?

lillith Thu, 03/18/2010 - 02:56

Im no conformation expert but she looks nice to me, epecialy for a 3yo who is going to be big. I think she has a cute face ;) . Decent looking shoulder, angles in the hind end look good as far as I can see, nice balanced picture. Perhaps a little short in the neck? but she is young.

rabbitsfizz Thu, 03/18/2010 - 05:58

UGH the Forum just ate my answer!!!
It was, basically, where in three hells have you been??? :bounce
Then it went on the say I am not excited by this filly.
Her neck is short, her front end is too made up in comparison with her weak quarters, she is too much on the forehand, etc etc.
I quite like the sister, she covers ground better, but this filly is going to be heavy on the forehand by conformation, so muscling her up is only ever going to help aesthetically, it is only ever going to mask the problem.
It all comes down to:
How much?
How big?
What is she going to be used for??

Sara Thu, 03/18/2010 - 09:27

Haha, rabbit! I've been around, just not here. I get too dang addicted to these forums and then they eat my life. I'll try to pop in more often. :)

Keep in mind when these photos were taken the filly had four or so more inches of growth in her. I agree that the sister's neck is better but you really think she's going to be on her forehand? I'm not seeing that. You're better at conformation than I am so I'd love to hear what you're seeing. Her expected mature height is between 16.2 - 17.0.

She is to be used as a medals/equitation horse. These horses tend to be big and a little coarser than our show hunters. We want them to jump a little flatter -- not with the extravagant bascule of a hunter.

I found another photo.

[img]http://lh6.ggpht.com/_FCt2uISRYy4/S6I32…]

Sara Thu, 03/18/2010 - 09:30

Oh, and the redder bay in the group shots is also available but she is seven months younger and already heavier so I think she's going to be [b]too[/b] big and bulky. An eq horse needs to be maneuverable since the courses are more like jumper courses.

rabbitsfizz Thu, 03/18/2010 - 12:07

No the other filly is too heavy...make a nice distance horse, maybe an all rounder??
The filly's neck really is too short, and I am assuming looks have some part in this?
I do not know enough about how your show classes work, she would only make a Working Hunter here, not even a Show Working Hunter....(I admit our classes are dividing up far, far too much, we now have a Show Working Hunter Lead Rein [i]and[/i] a Working Hunter Lead Rein class!)
Her rear end bothers me a lot, especially in an animal that is going to be primarily a jumper. She should be putting muscle on her rear end naturally, by this age, or just be in poorish condition all round, her having a well muscled front end and no rear to speak of is what worries me.
She is a nice enough animal, I suppose, she does nothing for me, if they are not asking too much I might take a chance, but she is not something that I would sink a huge sum of money into.
Before everyone says "How can you say that from a couple of pictures" believe me, you have to!! If Sara is going to drive five hours to see this....well, I hope you are getting more than gas money, I would not bother, not on those pictures, and they were, I am presuming, taken by the person trying to sell the animal ?

Sara Thu, 03/18/2010 - 12:27

There is no model section or score for conformation in the medal and eq classes so the only part of looks that matter is the overall picture they present. It isn't even actually scored, but of course the look of the animal and the way the rider fits it will of course influence the judge one way or the other.

I'm still going to go see her. It's been nearly a year since these photos were taken. With a good photographer in a sale barn that markets horses toward this discipline she would easily be two to four times what they're asking so I'm willing to take the time to go look. My clients will drive and pay for my meals plus I'll make either an hourly rate or a commission so I'll be paid. :)

When/if we have her vetted I'll ask the vet specifically about her neck and hind end conformation for jumping. Thanks for your help and opinions!

accphotography Thu, 03/18/2010 - 13:34

I like her... I just wish she had a different back end. Her loin is long (even if she has a very short back), probably because her croup is short. Croup is short and steep and hip is short. This will probably fill in some as she ages, but the total length and angles won't change, as you know. That being said, some of the best jumpers I've seen had similar conformation to this.

Krickette Thu, 03/18/2010 - 17:49

The pictures where she is facing camera are just too cute. I'm very curious to see how she's developed in the past year. The first photo it looks as though her front and back ends just don't match at all, but I know some youngsters go thru some very weird stages, so I wouldn't necessarily write her off for it. Care to share new photos of her once you go see her? I want to see a proper conformation shot!

Jenks Thu, 03/18/2010 - 19:23

There is nothing alarming about her. She has an alert, curious expression in the shots. I see the other non-bays are non-plussed, but the bays are alert. What is the breed, height, etc?

Her back-end has the perfect triangle in the pic. The pic shows her in movement so it is difficult to see anything else but a nicely coupled, perfectly placed points on the back-end. For jumping, this is not as powerful over jumps as a long hip, but conformation wise, a sound backend on top. I can't see the lower side which may be more important. Lower legs. But there are no alarms going off!

PS - if you want her for jumping, I'd definitely ask for more pics before driving to see her. If her hip is short standing still and square? She will not be good for jumping. Not long soundly anyway. Check to see her pastern angle matches her shoulder angle too (a rule I read about). A more laid back shoulder angle is not as good for jumping, but a straighter shoulder will aid her, though perhaps not keep her as sound.

Danni Thu, 03/18/2010 - 20:51

I actually like her! I'm not the best at pulling apart conformation, and I find it hard to see anyway in those pictures to be accurate. I also don't think her head is plain! I like her bone and she looks like what I'd think of as a hunter type?

What is she? Looks a bit like a heavy/light horse cross?? I know what she does look like, a friend has a Anglo Arab x Gypsy Cob and it looks just like her. I should see if I can find some pictures of her. But I'm not meaning to insult the filly as I know what some folks think about the cobs. But anyway yeh this filly looks like she has a little heavy blood close up somewhere is all I meant :D

Sara Thu, 03/18/2010 - 22:49

Funny thing though Jenks, we want a laid back shoulder for that sweeping movement. That's what does that, right? Even though the eq horses don't have to be daisy-cutters, they should still move with very little action.

So yeah, the short hip was the main thing I was seeing but I wasn't sure whether she would (or could) grow out of it. Looks like the jury's still out on that. Lace sure appeared to improve! I know where it's coming from, or at least I think I do. Her sire's an Arab. The dam is a Shire, which is why you guys are seeing heavy blood. I didn't list her breed up front because I didn't want that to color people's comments.

In any event it might be a moot point because there are TWO people going to look at her before my clients are able to make the trip. DANGIT!! If neither one buys her I'll request a conformation shot. Then again if neither one buys her maybe there is something wrong!

rabbitsfizz Fri, 03/19/2010 - 05:44

ACK, I hate this site it ate my answer :hammer
OK I shall start again.
I hope you realise how honoured you are that I take the time to nag....er....honour you with my experience....umn....

OK, onwards...
Shire X [i]ARAB[/i]!!!
Ugh, what were they thinking?
TB X I can see, but Arab?
Oh well.....

Shire crosses have produced some first rate jumpers, but they also have all the faults this filly has....short neck, broad front and weak rear end.
It is not "weak" per se, they are bred that way, and the horse itself is strong, but intended to be at least a hand smaller than the monsters they breed today, always remember that.
The rear end came form them requiring the horse to straddle the furrow with it's front end and walk inside it with it's rear end, and resulting in Shire breeders often putting their mares to a TB or Warmblood horse for a first foal as the rear end precluded the mare foaling a huge foal first time (and I think I have problems foaling out a Mini!!)
Added to which you have crossed two notoriously late blooming breeds here.
If you had two years to throw her out in a field and let her grow, you might have a jumping horse of some quality, but as a show horse?
Well, not in any ring in the UK, that's for sure, not even in Working Hunter!
But, as I said, I do not understand the US classes, so she may well fit in one of those, although, if you want to jump her, you would do well to remember that, whilst Arabs have legs like iron, a Shire needs to be at least five before you jump it, any horse with bone does, really, and both breeds do not mature until around that age, anyway.
How big is she now, and how big do they need her to grow to?

Jenks Fri, 03/19/2010 - 07:45

[quote="accphotography"]Odd, most of the true jumpers I've seen have had the shorter hips.

But if this hip:
http://www.accphotography.com/gallery/d…" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Can turn into this one:
http://www.accphotography.com/images/sa…" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

There's hope. :)[/quote]

The points are identical in both shots. You can see the triangle is perfect (perhaps slightly longer in the hip!) in both shots. Putting on muscle does not change bone structure.

Jenks Fri, 03/19/2010 - 07:56

[quote="Sara"]Funny thing though Jenks, we want a laid back shoulder for that sweeping movement. That's what does that, right? Even though the eq horses don't have to be daisy-cutters, they should still move with very little action.

So yeah, the short hip was the main thing I was seeing but I wasn't sure whether she would (or could) grow out of it. Looks like the jury's still out on that. Lace sure appeared to improve! I know where it's coming from, or at least I think I do. Her sire's an Arab. The dam is a Shire, which is why you guys are seeing heavy blood. I didn't list her breed up front because I didn't want that to color people's comments.

In any event it might be a moot point because there are TWO people going to look at her before my clients are able to make the trip. DANGIT!! If neither one buys her I'll request a conformation shot. Then again if neither one buys her maybe there is something wrong![/quote]

Yep! A laid back shoulder!

I actually think the backend looks more shire-ish than arab. Shire's are drafts and for pulling? traditionally a good draft has a shorter distance between the point of the butt and the point of the stifle with longer lines from both going to the point of the hip. This is for power in pulling. The top end has more growing to do - she will grow until she's 5. The moving shot looks like this, longer hip and stifle than between the stifle and butt:

[img]http://i694.photobucket.com/albums/vv30…]

I assume that when standing square, her point of stifle would be more forward of this point, but only a standing shot would tell.

Sara Fri, 03/19/2010 - 10:54

Okay, I'm starting to despair. :sad I was hoping a cross like this could work out for her because her parents just aren't going to spend the money required for a medals horse. They sell for mid to high five figures, at least, and even the babies that will grow into medal horses tend to cost at least $10,000. It gets even worse when you need one at 17+ hands like this girl does. :((

I won't condemn the whole Shire x Arab cross though. I've seen some really nice ones, competing and everything. Question -- would this cross work better for dressage?

Another question, which I should maybe ask in my other thread, what do you think of her current horse's conformation for jumping? He is not built like a typical hunter either but he does fine up through about 3'3" so far.

Sara Fri, 03/19/2010 - 12:08

HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHHAHAHAHAHA now it's color related. I'm looking again at what is for sale and found this mare who we won't be going to see her because I don't like the sound of an ex-racehorse who is "very forward under saddle" as an eq horse. Anyway, the funny thing is under markings.

She is a "roan sabino with dapples and flaxen mane and tail" Huh??

http://www.dreamhorse.com/show_horse.ph…" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

accphotography Fri, 03/19/2010 - 13:13

[quote="Jenks"]
The points are identical in both shots. You can see the triangle is perfect (perhaps slightly longer in the hip!) in both shots. Putting on muscle does not change bone structure.[/quote]

I wasn't talking about the angles. I was talking about the difference in the visual length of hip. This mare looks WAY light in her hip, but given what mine did, I wouldn't be convinced she'll stay that way.

accphotography Fri, 03/19/2010 - 13:14

[quote="Jenks"]I wasn't trying to talk you out of her! I was trying to show that she is not short in the hip in any shot![/quote]

Maybe not short proportionally to the rest of her hip, but definitely short proportionally to other horses and to the own rest of her body.