Opinions needed.....Rabbit please read too. GOOD NEWS !!!

It does take a long time, think of her as having abscesses in her feet, enclosed in the hoof and nowhere to go.
The Bute is necessary, and I would not worry about it, it is actually easier, you know, to mix it with some water in a syringe and squirt it down her throat, that way you know she has had it!!
Have you stinging nettles??
Don a pair of thick rubber gloves and pick a good bunch of long nettles and hang them up roots in the air.
After that have wilted a little she will be able to eat them, they are a good source of iron and give her something to eat that will do her system no harm, they are also good for cleansing the blood and she needs that at the moment.
I would be even more radical, I am afraid, and have her on no feed at all, that is what I did with Princess two years ago when she teetered on the brink.
She was in a paddock that I had put the whole herd on and eaten to the ground, not a "dry lot" I don't do that, but there was just a tiny amount of grass that she had to work at getting.
She stayed there for three weeks, and I had her on bute for four days then tailed it off....whatever your Vet says I have learned form experience it is not a good idea to suddenly stop But, I halve the dose then halve it again then down to once a day, and then finally nothing, it took four days on full dose and four days tailing off.
She was not, I do not think, as bad as Cherish sounds, but she is back on grass as normal (or would be if I had not shut the cow in the stable for the night because it took me an hour to catch it and it's foal was exhausted!! :hammer )
Have you tried hosing her feet???
Very old fashioned treatment but it works!!
Good Luck......

Thanks Fizz, the bedding is neccessary, it is very soft and she wont eat it. I will try and syringe the bute down her...although I have watched her eating the nuts covered in a small amount of vegtable oil (which does not have a carb or sugar content - I checked just in case), the oil means that the bute sticks to them and she has to eat it but if I can get it down her another way I will cut that out. The only trouble with starving minis as you know is Hyperlipemia (spelling ?) and they can get that quite quickly if weight loss is too sudden so neither I nor the vet wanted to go down that route.

I will try cold hosing her too. She has been on bute for 3 weeks now bar 2 days ! I think we have a large crop of nettles on the muck heap so will go and see how many I can pick tomorrow and will try that thanks. ;)

If she has been on Bute that long you need to start her on Ranitidine ASAP to prevent ulcers....this is of utmost importance, if your Vet will not give you a prescription (and he should do) you can buy it over the counter as Zantac, but do not get the stuff [i]from[/i] your Vet as it is horrendously expensive, as I found to my cost!!!
Any of the ulcer meds will do, it does not have to be specifically Ranitidine I use that because I have it prescribed for myself and I do not pay for prescriptions, omeprazone is also good, I think that is what Gastrogard is....??
The point is no horse should be on bute that long (although I agree completely that it is necessary) the system is not built to take it, so although the Ranitidine slows down the absorption of the bute, it is very necessary...I give the bute first and then the ranitidine, and I never give one without the other these days...I much prefer Banamine (Flunixin) which my Vet always uses now, but it is not as good an anti-inflammatory as bute.
If she will stand with her foot in a bucket it is a good way of cold hosing, just stick the hose in the bucket and the water will surround her foot, once she realises it is nice she will probably just stand there>

I've got loads of Ranitadine here - Brianna is on it for her Acid reflux !!! thanks ! - dosage ?

Oh and the bucket may be a better idea as the snake with the water coming out of it does not go down that well.....but may have too ! ;)

Two tablets dissolved in water....you can do the Ranitidine and the Bute together, but be aware that it slows down the absorption of the Bute, and thus it will take longer to work.
I do do it that way if I can only dose once a day.
Dosage I use of Bute is maximum of 1/8 sachet twice a day, and she has really been on it far too long, you could be saving her from founder to have her die of liver failure...just a thought!!!
You might want to talk to your Vet about Warfarin...I think there is now something else on the market that thins the blood and is safer than warfarin.
You should also be asking him about ovarian cysts, as even if you get her through this you need to find out what caused it, she should not have suddenly gone down this badly.
If she has a growth on an ovary it could be causing the kind of laminitis you can get after foaling, and it could explain why she appeared to be in foal when she wasn't.

Thanks Fizz, the Ranitadine is in liquid form though so not too sure how much to give her !!!

I will have words with the vet asap on Monday morning, ........there seems a lot that they need to answer at this point !!!..not happy at all !

Will keep you posted....why would the cysts cause insulin resistance?..will mention it too.

Sorry, I can't remember, I just know that cysts on the ovaries can cause the kind of founder you get after a bad foaling, and I suddenly thought "Oh but this mare did not get in foal..." which made me think maybe that could also be because she has a cyst???
How far are you from a Vet College, I would really be wanting this mare to be referred if she were mine, this has gone on far too long, IMO, and I am not at all sure that any "ordinary" Vet is qualified to deal with a case this serious.
They obviously have not got to the bottom of the actual cause of the founder....if they could do that they might be able to cure it.
If for example it is cysts on her ovaries (horse do not get cystitis, BTW, this is a different thing altogether, but often referred to as "Cystic Ovaries" for convenience sake, and also causes what our friends on LB insist on calling "Phantom Pregnancy" (which horses also do not get)
But if this were the cause, curing it should go a long way to curing the founder....
I would also insist on X-rays...your first instincts were correct, if the pedal bone has rotated I would not be going on with this, hard as it is.
You have to remember that, even if you have a good Vet, they are loathe to admit they do not know the answers, and they also want to make money out of you, my "good" Vet, (and he was good) ran up a £600.00 bill with Rabbit doing NO good at all, he was treating the wrong condition!!
I insisted on a referral, took him into the College and he was back to normal after three days and an extremely well earned £900.00 bill!!!
So I switched my Vet to the College Large Animal Practise and I have never looked back.

Hi RF !
Thanks, yes asked my vet all the questions first thing this am she told me the following ;-

- Bute affects the large intestines for ulcers - Ranitadine only works on Bute whilst it is in the stomach as it is an anti-acid, this I can agree with, so would not help in that instance. But yes you are right Ulcers are a concern and there is another drug we can give her to counter-act this.

- the dosage is not that high - I double checked this and it's not too high for her weight of 100kg (I checked elsewhere)

- They are coming out to x-ray her on Wednesday - we don't want to box her anywhere as it's too painful for her and they can't come out before then

- There are no Vet collages near us unfortunately

- I have her on nettles and soaked hay up to a slice a day

- I agree with you about the pedal bone - but I really don't want to have to go there at the mo - it's too hard to think about will have to wait to see what the xrays say

- when she was scanned in October 07 they saw a foal the same size as the foal born to my friends mare in July 08, but I will def ask about it.

- I am aware that vets can string these things out and make more fuss then neccessary - they did that to Molly out moggy in Jan until i asked them to put her down she was 15 and wanted to go !

Thank you so much for your help and support RF, it means a lot to me.

OK, re the dosage...have you weighed the Bute out, because that is what I did right back at the beginning, I weighed it on pharmacists scales, and you would be surprised.
Just saying, is all....

Had not thought of the ulcers in the large intestines......my Vet (RVC) prescribed Ranitidine for use with but....she now uses Banamine, which is less effective as an antiinflammatory...maybe your Vet should be thinking of steroids??

I just felt, after two weeks, maybe something else should be being tried???

Fingers crossed for the X-rays, I would be OK asking her to put up with the pain if I thought there was a happy ending in sight....I am sure you feel the same way.
Did you query cysts, or will you keep that for when she is coming out of the woods??
My Vet practice, at the College, would be more than happy to talk to your Vet, BTW, they do it all the time.

Thanks Fizz, yes will ask the vet about cysts tomorrow and will check again dosages ect - I agree if there is light at the end of the tunnel all this boredom for her is worth it in the end !

I have decided that if it looks grim for her and the decision has to be made to end it for her - I will ask for a few days supply of strong painkillers, I will turn her out in the long grass of the field and let her have a good couple of days before I end it.

Really hope this doesn't happen.

Will keep you posted.

That's a very sweet but sad thought. I hope it doesn't come to that, Lipi.

Good news, vet came today and there is only a 5% rotation in the left front and similar in right hind so not bad news at all. There is also a small amount of separation of the Laminae on the fronts but hopefully after a radical trim she should be doing a lot better - am so pleased. :D

Also said that if she goes sound then she will be aloud turn out on already grazed grass at night only. She also did not see any harm in her getting pregnant as long as she is closely watched for laminitis and then hopefully the pregnancy will also help her prevent the Laminitis. After she has had the foal or in the last stages of pregnancy she will be allowed on the meds, but they only help prevent laminitis and don't treat it so would only really want to be used in the worst time of year for Lami risk anyway.

All in all I was so pleased I forgot to ask about the cysts but will do in the next few days. ;)

That's great news!

That's wonderful Lipi - congratulations and well wishes coming your way... :love

Sounds like you got ahold of it well enough for now :) My first thought on opening the post was to get her on ulcer medication too.
In everything else I would be working on simplicity and low stress as much as possible to help her heal. I would make sure she has a companion who she likes (doesn't even have to be a horse) and she should have some room to move around. box stalls all day can really depress some horses, I would fence like a 20x20 ft area very soft footing for hoof support in a place that you can keep dry (Or put her in an open area in the barn with a view out).

some thoughts about the trim: it should be geared at correct breakover and leaving plenty of bar and frog for support. If rolling the toe doesn't provide some relief she may have abscesses that need to work out (and we all know how long THAT takes).
I would NOT let anyone touch my horse who had preconcieved ideas that all laminitic horses need a higher angle (to relieve the tendon) or lower (to [i]force [/i] ground parrallel bone). Note that I'm refering to the angle of the coffin bone, not the toe wall. the toe wall at this stage is only in posistion to provide a barrier between the corium and the environment, it is "out of service" as it were for suport.
If I was trimming my goal would be to find what is normal for that particual horse at that time. In fact, unless something is screaming at me that its wrong I just trim the toe and heel the same amount and dont change the angle. My thinking goes like this:
When there has been a laminitic attack the bone comes loose from the toe wall and is not held in place by the hoof but rather tendons and stuff that attaches it to the rest of the skeleton and it will end up in a neutral position, there is no need to raise it further and lowering it can just cause more trouble. Let it be where it went and grow a hoof around it. I'm more likely to actually [i]trim[/i] an angle change in on a hoof with a solid attachment, such as a strong hoof that's has just grown and worn wierdly and obviously wrong or a post laminitic hoof where the bone is ready to relax from an unatural position (watch movement and stance, or better yet leave them barefoot and watch how the wear patterns do most of the work for you.)

what is the logic behind night turnout? I've been taught that thats the worst time for a at risk horse to grass...

Hi Morgan, I have been told that late at night and early morning are the safest time to graze Laminitic ponies, the rest of the day she could wear a grazing muzzle I suppose, but I would prefer her to come in.

Reading your suggestions on her trim, I am not too sure what you mean, show me a picture and I'd understand - that's the way I work I'm afraid - :sign

The thing I am not happy about it that vets these days always go on about long toes and taking them off - my mini mare was kept as natural as possible and that is how her hooves grow. They trimmed my Lipi gelding after he went lame with Caudel Heel and now his feet look silly - tiny feet on a large horse. I will try to take some pics if I can of her hooves.

I have an instructor who is both one of the most experienced barefoot trimmers I know and also an argonomist and works for usda who said that the sugars in grasses build up during daylight and get used during the night. Which means that dusk is the highest sugar and dawn the lowest. Night turnout usually means your putting them outaround dusk and so they will be getting the highest sugar grass first, when they are prone to try and gobble it. Early morning IS best, I would turn them out early (or if you stay up [i]late[/i] like me I supose you could send them out just before bed lmao!) and bring them in before noon.

if you're going to get pics I'll draw on them, if not I'll make up some of my sketches. :) set the hoof on a cutting board or something similar and set the camera on the ground next to it, to the side. Then take a picture of the sole looking down on it, then one from more to the side and down so I can see concavity.

warning: much talking after this line
:angel
You dont have to read, I just cant help it LOL.
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As far as hoof form, long toes are a problem much of the time, but so are long heels, and long just about anything else. Key word being "long". A good farrier should be able to see what is too long for that particular horse. Some of them have trouble looking at the rest of the horse :?

I'd like to see pics of the Lipi, some of the hooves I trim are considered by some people to be "tiny" but it's a healthy tiny, they are short in toe and heel length, yet deep in the sole.

When I'm looking at "hoof size" I generally glance at how wide the hoof is at the coronary band and at ground level in relation to the bulk of the horse. (look from the front)
Some people will say "ohh big feet!" when really it's just flared and an inch too long. or even when they are just long: normal hooves are bell shaped, when they grow the base gets wider.
Then there's the other way around, the hoof can be really wide and some eyes will see it as small because the toe is short. Even my mom comented on Dusty's hooves the other day "they're so tiny!" I'm standing there thinking 'Huh? 5 1/4 inch unflared width on a 15.1 , 1000p, biggest hooves in the pasture..." but he does have some rediculusly short toes lol. And he MUST be trimmed short to remain sound. He has very short lower leg bones but they are really heavy and thick, the hoof forms acordingly.

The length of the hoof (as you see it from the outside) is determined by the length of the coffin bone (top to bottom), it's position within the hoof capsule and the thickness of the sole. [i]wall growth past the sole is excess [/i] and I do not count it in true length, I trim it off. the only excetion is when dealing with a severly compromized laminitic hoof where there IS no sole, then you have to pretend like its there and trim wall as if it were.
a sunken bone where the top of the coffin bone is bellow the top of the toe wall is a pathology and so excess length of the toe wall from that is bad.
The second, a thicker sole, extra length from that is good. provided it is true sole and not too long. (I cant teach this over the internet....its complicated and I've only got a decent handle on it after about 6 years now :shock: I expect another 20 before I'm infallible :lol: )
[b]The length of the bone itself does not change[/b] after birth, it is the first leg bone to close.
Pretty much the hoof length you want is the length at birth plus the length from a thick mature sole. That's not actually very long at all. Somewhere around 3 inches for many riding horses, even shorter for ponies and short horses or just horses with a conformationally short coffin bone.
So taller horses will have a bit longer hoof then a shorter horse of similar build.
Weight effects [i]width[/i] far more than it does lenght, the only effect it will have on lenght is that a heavier horse requires a bit thicker sole for protection (like the thickening as a foal grows) but that doesn't count for too much.
The width of the hoof continues to grow untill the horse reached mature weight (depending on breed could be up to about 5 years old). Two horses of equal height may have nearly the same hoof lenght but drastically different widths due to their weight. Just take a look at any draft, but it occures in less dramatic fasion between other horses as well.
in short: length relative to height, width relative to weight.

You should never try to[b] grow[/b] more hoof just because the horse is "big". excess hoof length is excess hoof length no matter what. The wall should be trimmed to the hard sole, (but no shorter) and not allowed to grow much longer. I start seeing minor distortions after 1/4 inch of excess wall, increasing in severity the longer they get. the only time I am ever worried by a hoof looking "tiny" is in these circumstances:

a. the sole is excessivly thin. causing the hoof to be shorter than natural. generally this would be caused by a farrier trimming off the sole. I've seen this happen to a $150,000 horse when the farrier misjudged relative length (she was very lightly built) and rasped into the sole and shod her extremely short, she ended with a bruised sole I could flex with my pinky and a hot nail. could have been avoided with half a glance at the tip of the frog.
(also thin sole can be caused by laminitis.)

b. the hoof is contracted. making it narrower than natural.(the hoof capsule is constricted tighter than it should be for the size of the bone)

c. the hoof had been restricted during growth and is narrower than natural for the horses bulk (shoeing or long term contraction before maturity can cause this). Often mistaken for 'genetically small hooves' because foals and young horses in these lines are commonly subjected to the same treatment as the parent for competition. Take one out of the loop and watch them grow :D

d. the wall is extremely thin for the horses size. lack of circulation or stimulation or possible nutrient deficiency. moving a barefoot horse from full turnout to 24/7 stalling long term produces a visible difference in wall thickness, and vice versa. As one example Classy lost [i]half[/i] thickness in new growth during her stay at the halter barn to be bred. She was stalled for about 2 months, when she came home she went back out and grew normally again, with a huge groove in the wall that she had to grow out. If she had stayed she would have developed an entire hoof of extremely thin wall.

Wow Morgan - thanks that was brilliant ! At the mo Cherish has frog supports on so I can't take any pics - I will however try to get hold of the xrays taken if I can so I can post those. To me Cherish has always had quite wide and flat feet - what I call Shetland feet but I have neve noticed the toe before now. One of the main probs with a lot of miniatures is that in the States they have been breeding them with box feet and extremely upright pasterns - I had one on loan from a friend who had virtually no angulation of the pasterns - was horrid !!!

Anyway I bow to your knowledge !!! ^:)^

That is all really good advice, and I agree about night turnout.
The theory of that they eat less at night but we are still getting ground frosts and that affects the sugar content in the grass too.
Also a word of warning, do not be tempted to cut the grass she is to go on, when you cut grass it effects the structure of the grass and it could mean that all the "goodness" in the grass is now packed into the short stems, if you think about it, cutting it is wounding it and it grows in response to the wound........
I would make her a paddock and graze it right down to the ground then turn her out on it and let her work to get anything.
If she does have cysts on her ovaries she will not get in foal....and you have not managed to get her in foal yet!!!
Although pregnancy can help a mare as the body is concentrating on the foetus, if she is actually foundered I do not think I would do it.
Although your Vet sounds as if he is sensible I would honestly be asking for a second opinion.

I wouldn't put her on cut grass and I'm allmost tempted to put her out during the day too but only in a grazing muzzle - I really hate them though so will have to see ! I was going to turn her out when it goes dark and bring her in , in the morning. From what I have read, the grass shoots sugar into the grass as it thaws from the frosts so late morning would be bad on a frosty day.

I think the cysts could be an issue and I am going to chase my vet to ask her about it when I can get hold of her but she REALLY was in foal in Oct 07 - yes I know we had all the false alarms but then when I was in hospital she was not well and hubby called the vet, he came out and said she looked like she had been stung by something in her mouth, at the same time he told hubby that he thought her foal would be due in 2 weeks, this was begining of June 08....but yes cysts could still be an issue and I will check, I will also check about breeding her with another vet.