How did our breeds get where they are today, and WHY???

I agree that our dog breeds have gone beserk ! I puposefuly chose the Leonbergers because they have less congenital problems then the other giant breeds also they MUST be hip/elbows and eye scored before they are allowed to breed - which I think is a must in a lot of breeds - but they don't do it !! I think another example of bad breeding is the British Bulldog, it looks nothing like what it did in Victorian times, the head and shoulders are so big that ALL puppied have to be born by C-section as otherwise they could not get out of the birth canal !!! :hammer They also have terrible breathing problems due to the extreme of the flat face - much like the Peke. I have a friend who breeds them, they are £2000 a Bulldog pup because to simply get them to 8 weeks is a miracle and even then she had Bulldog pup who was several months old walk into the lounge and it's lungs exploded !!!! - Why would you breed with animals like this - absolute madness !!!!!!!! So this is a modern day Bulldog type - http://www.britisher.co.uk/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false; and this is what a victorian one looks like - http://www.victorian-bulldog.co.uk/Judy…" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false; which as you can see they have actually started to breed back to, to get the Victorian look.

Fizz I didn't agree with the expose programme the BBC did along with the RSPCA - for one good reason - they never at any point told people that there are good breeders out there and these breeders DO breed to the betterment of the animals and breed and adhere to medical tests before breeding such as the hip/elbow scores.

As to horses - the TWH are a prime example of messing with nature to get what can only be said is a freaky looking/walking horse - see vid - how anyone in thier right mind cannot see that this is detremental to the horse -

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CkyC1Fq6…" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

These beautiful horses have the most amazing temprements which is why they are able to abuse them to this degree - so terribly sad. :sad

I am not a fan of any breed that uses artificial means to alter the gait in any way.

Amanda,I am sorry to be so blunt, but I hope this will be a blunt speaking thread, so here goes anyway (!) There is NO way the Leonberger club can stop any and all dogs from breeding, and from the resultant pups form being KC registered.
Also, I have to tell you, I have heard stories about Leos that would make your hair stand on end!
My own breed Dobes, are only a bit over 100years old as a breed and yet I do not think there is one single sound line in them....my own contribution?
Never breeding another one, nor buying another puppy. I shall have rescues only from now on!
I do not believe there is a single pedigree dog that is sound, not one.
If someone can prove me wrong I shall be very, very happy.
I discount non KC registered Hounds and Working Dogs, as there are NO unsound working Hounds...they get shot long before they can breed.
Same as there would never have been any unsound working ranch horses!!!

I think the amazing temperament of TWH might actually be linked to the abuse they have to suffer. Does anyone have direct access to the memory banks of someone who knew/bred TWH before WW2???

a lot of german dogs scare me. Except german shorthair pointers because mine is perfect :mrgreen: and weimereners cause they're cute....
but german pinschers are freaky looking.

[quote="lipigirl"]
As to horses - the TWH are a prime example of messing with nature to get what can only be said is a freaky looking/walking horse - see vid - how anyone in thier right mind cannot see that this is detremental to the horse -

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CkyC1Fq6…" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
[/quote]

A related video on YouTube... this is a YEARLING:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YU4rerzd…" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

I actually did a report based on that expose. Veterinarians have been warning breed societies for 50 years that the hereditary genetic conditions were becoming a problem. It's sad to say, but the purebred cats and dogs have been a disgrace for many years and everyone knows it. I make it a point, and have for some time now, to direct prospective pet owners away from any sort of purebred in that regard. Ethically and financially, it just makes much more sense to rescue a nice mutt. I think it is very sad, but the horse breeds are going down the same road. They are quickly shifting to more and more of an extreme look and accumulating genetic diseases along the way.

I am not saying that Leos are perfect...I agree that no purebred dog is perfect or non-purebred for that matter but some are a lot better than others and yes I too have heard bad things of some breeders but why club all breeders into the same pot - that is not fair ! IMO It is also one thing to breed a pedigree dog knowing they may have hip problems later in life quite another to breed ones where 40% of all the dogs are epileptic such as with the Boxer.

Maybe there should be a ruling that after so many generations of crosses there has to be new blood introduced from overseas to try and help the situation out or something like that.

This is a good thread !!

ACC if you think that video you posted was appalling, look at this...
this is in MY TOWN, a tiny town of less than like 2000 people
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wuqN9n4R…" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

About the "train wreck" horses (and dogs). I absolutely hate purebred dogs, would take a mutt any day over any purebred (yes we do have a purebred pyreneese and an american bulldog) also the reason I don't like purebreds is all the issues the different breeds have, ie knee problems in pyrs. As far as horses go, if it has straight legs,back, good set neck, I don't care if it is registered or not. I really dislike any halter fit horses and the things like TWH with the extremely gross movements. That is just not natural or right IMO. Basically when it starts hurting the welfare of the animal it needs to stop, whether it is breeding for extremely over exaggerated features (huge muscles and tiny heads/neck,feet) or cutting tendons to make them shorter, hold their tails up, or adding so many devices that it just destroys any beauty in the way they move or look, that is hurting the animal. Then that starts a whole new argument on what is bad for them, what hurts them...
Basically we need some unbiased vet studies to flat out say, this is bad.

I think the situation with cats, at least in the Uk, us not the same as with dogs. Yes anyone can breed any cat to any other but most GCCF registered cats are on the inactive register and their offspring cannot be registered or shown which will put people off. Also you are allowed to show neuters to the highest levels, again good, I don't think you can do this with dogs? There are also type limits like Persian noses which must not be above the lower line of the eye (though IMO they are still nearly always too short).
I have heard horror stories from other countries though, something pretty awful was supposed to have happened with Burmese in the US, where the round faced pop eyed look became so desirable, when a kitten was born with a partial two face gene which caused the face to be extra wide and the eyes extra popped everyone rushed to breed to it, resulting in the breed nearly dying out in the US.
UK Burmese have always retained their lovely middle type.
A few years ago in the rat fancy there was a fashion for huge chunky rats with short broad heads and huge pop eyes, they are quite horrible IMO and don't look like rats or follow the standard which requires the rat to be racy typed. But its easy to pick the biggest heaviest boned offspring each generation and thats what happened. The National Fancy Rat Society standards officer was approached and asked if she would change the standard to the new favoured type but she refused and the type has gone back to being lighter and more racey but if someone else had been in charge, fancy rats would probably now look like guinea pigs with tails!
I don't know much about the dog world but I think its judges that make or break a breed, what they pick as winners are what people will breed, simple as.
I'm a bit of a purebreed lover, I don't think I could go back to non pedigree cats. I had them for years, got a couple of Orientals and they blew me away. Even my British Shorthair has a character over and above any of my beloved moggies of the past. I only ever had one dog (well my daughter's dog, she lives with my ex and I haven't seen her in years), a dalmatian who was wonderful, nothing like the dog I was led to believe the breed was, an intelligent, fun loving girl, a sensitive guard, a real dog but with her own character and mind of her own. If I got another dog it would be a dally, no competition.

So, how do these things come about? I know that in some instances, the idea of "refinement" has gone overboard (think Arabian with tiny ears, teensy muzzle, big eyes and mongo dishy-ness), but what is it about these "features" that are found to be attractive/wanted enough to be winning in the showring? Has it become such a feature of the showring that whoever is training/handling the horse is more important than the actual horse? And the smaller breeders/exhibitors see BNT winning with the horse that can't move fast enough to avoid being hit by a snail that they all have to copy that? Have that many breeders lost their confidence in being able to critique animals or have that many people who don't have the knowledge gotten into breeding, and have nothing to use as a standard but the ribbons a horse wins?

Diane

There needs to be highly detailed standards for every breed of horse...but now so many breeds have gone askew that there might not be any standards.

Havent a lot of breeds like shires changed a lot in recent years? I remember seeing some lately and thinking they looked a lot leaner and less bulky than I remembered....I'm going to have to look into that one.

It's sad that whatever is "desirable" eventually becomes the norm.

I think that the problem started with the move from function to fashion in all the breeds. 150 years ago, if an animal was kept, it was because it had a job. Today's dogs don't often have jobs and the horses that don't need to do much work are the ones we are seeing with the most exaggerated features. I think that shows should go back finding the animal that would best suit the purpose of the breed and stop showing for the looks. All those lame German Shepards would flunk out of sheparding and the TWHs that are sored would not hold up to an entire day running around a plantation. Halter QHs would fall flat (or die of an HyPP attack) if asked to do ranch work all day and halter Arabs with those straight pasterns and funky backs would go lame doing the endurance rides. Bulldogs would drop dead of respiratory failure if asked to work bulls. The animals that can actually do their jobs and well should get the right to pass on their genetics.

As to brachycephalic dogs (the smashed faced ones), I personally think that breeding them is a form of animal abuse. Those dogs spend their whole lives struggling to breath...how is that a good quality of life? In school, we have whole sections devoted to dealing with the problems that come with that specific conformation.

We have Pit bulls and from the literature I have these dogs were bred for gameness and strength...(PLEASE I DO NOT condone dog fighting!!!). The "look of them is /was very varied as "looks" were not bred for. We have never had any problems from any disorder you might call congenital - although now people are not breeding them for fighting anymore so they may fall into the same hole as the other pure breeds... (This is just a musing not an defence of "breeding").

Pitbulls aren't a breed.
I discount AmStaffs as they will soon be the train wreck of all pedigree breeds!
Pit Bulls are sound [i]because[/i] they aren't pedigree!
My friends hounds - Petit Basset Griffon Vendeen- are completely sound, but there is not one single KC registered dog in the pack!
There are KC reg PBGV and they do look sort of like his hounds, but they are already getting problems with soundness in them, and he was approached a while back for a stag hound to be used to put some soundness back in the breed (Hounds in the UK bred by a registered pack and with "bookwork" to prove pedigree can be registered with the KC) He did actually get them a couple of French bred hounds, as he had nothing suitable.
I am a great follower of PitBulls, they are fantastic dogs, not everyone's cup of tea, but brilliant, nonetheless. Since they are officially banned in the UK they will never be KC reg, so they should stay sound.
There are now more "purebred" PitBulls in the UK than there were before the ban!!!

I think the Arab's looks can be mapped straight back to the Blunts and to good old Lady W...the animals the Blunts brought back form Arabia looked nothing like the modern day animals, and were all around 13.2-14.2hh...14.2hh was [i]big[/i]!!!
But the Blunts, then Lady Anne's daughter Lady Wentworth, had a dream, and they had the money and the arrogance to force the breed to do as they wished.
Did Lady W stick to the rules?
Not a chance! Which is probably why the Arab stayed sound as long as it did and had so much influence on other breeds.

With dogs it's not a matter of finding good breeders you know, it has gone way beyond that, now.
It is a matter of finding sound dogs, and there really aren't any!!

Sorry Fizz but there are other breeds out there that are not a complete mess and as I've said before there is a lot of difference in having a dog that might have less than great hips in later life and a dog that can't function normally due to brain problems, collapsing backends, epilepsy, breathing problems. There are a lot of mutts out there who can suffer the same fate as hip problems, blindness, diabetes, cancer ect.
I am not defending all Leonbergers for instance but compared to some giant breeds there have very few illnesses (please ellaborate on what you have heard about them) and they can pull carts and do water rescue as they should....probably because they didn't get recognised in this country until quite recently which goes along with your other point. There are also quite a few working breeds that can still do their jobs unlike the pedigree GSDs. The breeds listed in the expose were IMO the worst cases seen and quite an eye opener ! :shock:

I am NOT a fan of Pitbulls and I agree they have grown a lot in popularity in the last few years mainly as a status symbol !! In the wrong hands they are incredibly dangerous, in the right hands they are probably lovely dogs - but how many people really know how to own one !

Your statements about the Arab is the same reason I am worried about the Paso Fino's being bred bigger - they are not designed to be that big or that long coupled and I can see the breed falling apart if it continues. All.............JMO !! :D

"Form to function" the holy grail of conformation analysis according to my stud lecturer. lol.

I think that perhaps a problem arises in the interpretation of the breed standards, when does a dish faced, delicate muzzled, broad foreheaded arab face become a bug eyed, teacup muzzled, deer looklike? When does a well built heavy shouldered, round quartered stout working animal become a double muscled monstrosity?

I think breed standards should state limitations on all breed characteristics to try to prevent things going too far and judging be based on that. EU laws state that any animal from two registered parents has to be registered by whatever soc but do they have to register as breeding animals or just breed members? have an A list and a B list only A's that have been inspected and tested for genetic defects and conformational problems as well as tested for ability to do whatever the breed purports to do can be shown. Put in incentives to neuter B's and only breed A's.

I think a breed test would be a great idea and I also like the limitations of conformation idea too - but sadly how many people would follow it. It is down to the judges to stop awarding trophies to animals who are unsound.

I'll stand by what I say.
Name me [u]ONE[/u] pedigree breed of dog that has no congenital deformities, inherited problems (I'll ignore temperament at the moment).

Shires used to be the smaller of the two breeds, you could tell a Clyde because it was bred slightly leggier (Now, I [i]may[/i] have that exactly wrong!!!) Also Shires were not allowed to be splashy or roany, again, one way to tell visually the difference between the two breeds.
Suffolks were about 15.2hh any taller would have been useless on the soil they were bred to work.

Not sure about Belgians, except there are three distinct strains (still are) and the only place that breeds them quite as tall as they do, and Chestnut, is America. You will hardly see a Chestnut Belgian in Belgium!!!

Do NOT get me started on Quarter Horses.
Just don't!!!

or TWH.

Luckily neither breed is ever likely to "catch on" over here, QH's keep sort of cropping up and then dying off again, we just do not have a need for them, so they will always be a novelty item.

I'd love to say that, when manufacturing the Miniature Horse we selected carefully for all the important things, as it would be so easy to do, but, in fact, that just isn't true, and whilst there are a few breeders who are genuinely interested in the future of the breed they are not the ones making the big bucks.
And for every one interested in breeding sound, well natured animals there are ten who just want to push the hype and make the money. *Big Sigh*

Ok been sitting with thinking cap on - some of the breeds without a history of hereditory health probems because I haven't got long this eves -

Xoloitzcuintli
Pharoh Hound
Greenland Dog
Sloughi

It seems most of the old type and ancient type breeds are pretty free from hereditory health problems, some other breeds have maybe one or two relatively small hereditory health problems. So in conculsion there are quite a few breeds that have no more health problems than a Mutt. What should be happening is that ALL breeders should be aiming at ridding all the breeds of these defects and if this is not possible because like the Pug (which is reported to have a smaller gene pool than the Giant Panda) is so inbred then work will have to be done in introducing fresh blood from other breeds to try and sort the problem out.....which they will hate but it should be done to prevent the breed dying out.

Got to run for now !

[quote="rabbitsfizz"]
whilst there are a few breeders who are genuinely interested in the future of the breed they are not the ones making the big bucks.[/quote]

That's it, in a nutshell, I think...and goes back to my earlier plaint...we've people who are far removed, by background and heritage, from the soil and picking/choosing stock and mates for their stock based on working conformation, involved in the showcasing and production of our horses and dogs. They go for the "cute" factor, and ignore the hows and whyfors of conformation. Add in the emotional factor (just how many people have you heard/seen/read get all torn up because someone did not like their animal? In some cases, it's worse than attacking their kids' talents!!), I guess we can't do anything but expect breeds to fall apart.

Gives me all the more reason to stick with performance-based showing, where what matters is how clean/fast a horse clears the course, and not that someone thinks my horse is cute or not...

Diane

I believe at least 3 of those breeds do have genetic diseases - I ran across citations for them in my research. I specifically remember the Pharoah having a blood disorder, and an eye disorder.

Sorry guys but I am not going to trash [b]every[/b] pedigree dog breed, because some are just as healthy as a Mutt - are you saying that Mutt's never get ill......prove it ?? You can't can you ??

I do agree that pedigree dog breeding does need an overhaul however.

It is not a question of getting ill.
It is a fact that these animals are actually born with a predisposition to a hereditary defect...this is a fact.
I am pretty sure Pharaohs have HD problems as well, and Sloughis, for that matter......
I have never heard of the first one, I shall go an Google it!!
Is the Greenland Dog a recognised breed???

The allele responsible for the Xolo's hairlessness also affects the dog's dentition: Xolos typically have an incomplete set of teeth.

Analysis of PRA-affected and obligatory carrier Sloughis showed that this mutation cosegregates with disease status in a large pedigree

It's not so much incomplete dentition it's ususally foward pointing canines that sometimes causes the problem in hairless dogs.

Ok maybe ill is not the right word but plenty of Mutt's are born with Eye problems, diabetes, epilepsy, breathing problems, HD, heart problems just not so many.

Yes Greenland dog is KC recognised.

My mutt dog Cooper , the boxer cross, just blew his mitral valve on wed. on friday his atrium above the valve fibrilated, and rather than let him fail over the next couple of days we put him on oxygen long enough for his fan club to gather and then had him over-anesthitzed...
whatever he was crossed with (Karelian? Akita?) didn't help his heart overcome the boxer genes. He was nine.
[img]http://i74.photobucket.com/albums/i275/…]

Tinateke that is sad, but it sounds like he had a good life with you and you did the right thing at the end.

Don't want to be rude but this is getting a little off topic I think, I thoght that the mention of dog breeds was to illustrate what can happen if breed standards are taken too far? Perhaps in another thread people can challenge Fizz to find a dog breed without issues :) . Personaly I prefer rescues and they are more often mutts but would consider a purebred if it needed a home but I don't know enough about them to consider breeding.

Back to horses I think you are right Fizz from what I have seen and read shires used to be slightly shorter and definatly stouter bred than clydes, they where always the leggiest of the heavy heavy horses. The ID has also changed recently where people have gone from breeding them as work horses to breding them as a compliment to TB in the irish sport horse lines. The have got lighter and leggier. I saw a great example of the comparison between Creevagh Grey Rebel (Shaun) and a foundation bred stallion at the same stud called Frankie, can't remember his show name though which is anoying me cos I can't find a pic. Shaun was actually shorter and much more athleticaly built, almost looked like a quality version of the new style taller connemaras while Frankie was HUGE and built like a brick out house, one hell of a neck on him and a seriously broad chest. Could jump though which was impressive at his size.

Most of the pony breeds seem to be getting taller and lighter boned at the moment which should make them more athletic and I can see why show jumper ponies do sell, I can't help prefering the old style though, I like my chunky little ponies.

All animals have a minimum of 4 genetic defects and this has nothing to do with purebred or pedigree.. While some spific breeds may harbor more then others or the spific defect may be more shocking then others it does not make one breed more superior then another and since there can and will be mutations or yet undiscovered recessives it is arrogant to belittle breed such as qhs or twh as the poster child as some exclusive club of defect .. High horse is not a breed and the fall off can be just as hard..

I will be sure to let my 23 year old impressive bred mare that went on a trail ride yesterday that she is hideious.