hit a wall

Wow. Tough one.
What is it that you do differently then your little rider? Seems if she's not intimidated by his antics, he'd stop playing the games like he did with you.
I've no input as far as figuring him out, but maybe a different "job" would suit him. Could be, he just doesn't like arena work? Have you trail ridden him or tried a western saddle? I guess what I'm trying to say is maybe he's more of a nose to butt pony instead of a performer? It'd be a shame to have to euth him, but you know him best...

You are sure it is not his discomfort? He is definitely being purposefully bad? I think you should have the kids do some respect work with him on the ground before riding? Worth a shot maybe? It sounds like you have his respect, but he is trying to get away with stuff with the kids?

I was thinking that as well, but he doesn't pull the tricks with Sara...

Both Daylin and I have had to do this with both Lacey and Cyn. Lacey thought she could up and walk off whenever she felt like it. On the trail, when tied, whenever after being left alone for 2 years. Reared when I asked to stop. It took a month to completely get it over with, but now Daylin is going through the same motions with Lacey that I did just in case as she is taking lessons on her.

I agree though, the liability is serious when you are doing this at your barn with a client's child.

I really thought hard about the discomfort issue but I don't think that's it because when he's being good (like when I ride him) he's all perky with ears pricked. I think if he was in pain he'd pin his ears or wring his tail. The bucking really looks and feels just naughty.

Hmm, maybe I'll have the teenager (who is a working student -- I don't think I'd put a regular lesson kid on him any more) try some roundpenning with him and see if that helps. That's a good suggestion because he is a very dominant pony with other ponies so he may be trying to pull rank on these kids. I know I'm still going to end up selling him at a huge loss but I'd rather give him away to the right person than euth him.

Getting her to respect my space on the ground wherever I went and whatever I did was done daily with multiple different tasks, but never the same exact thing and no lunging. For about 10-15 minutes. Making her step laterally away on the fore, or backward, over stuff, kicking stuff.... and the one rein stop (when on the trail) did the trick. She doesn't even think about running for the barn anymore when we're out. She did the first few time and I'd put her nose on my boot until she stops and make her stand for 15 minutes. But the trails were the worst. Daylin will not be taking her out until I've been riding her for several more months.

Cyn picked it up instantly. Respect. Lacey? She is a tester I think. I am sure she will test every different person I put on her.

PS - I hope it can help, because I was ready to put Lacey down too. She just knew all the tricks and buttons so I quit riding her. Then I got a trainer who has worked with re-training me primarily.

It'd be such a shame to euth him, I hope there are alternatives, but if not then at least you're able to make that call.
My friend I stayed with in Houston (I actually put an ad up for her pony on the sale page) was just in love with him from what she saw on your website. She actually wanted me to contact you about him and see if you were interested in a trade.

I think that getting some respect on the ground for whoever is going to ride him might help, makes logical sense anyway..... Then again ponies aren't always logical.

He's Welsh.
They are either angels with kids , and, to be honest, I find they are more often than not, or devils. It's a hard one when you get one that is a devil.
I know exactly what I would do, I would put him in harness!

I saw your ad, Krickette. I would trade if your friend understands his temperament problems. I can't remember though, is she looking for a pony for herself or for kids? (edit: I went back and looked and she wants kid-safe so no good :( )

Yeah, I haven't encountered any other ponies like him but I knew they were out there. I think he has been trained to drive at some point so he could go that direction. He doesn't move fancy enough to win driving classes in the Welsh ring but maybe he could do that combined driving thing that is like eventing.

Woo! I ground drove Texas today and either someone HAS already done this or he's just really smart. We were doing half-turns and serpentines at the trot even though I was hopeless at coordinating the lines and my whip. :P

I second Rabbit! Harness! Good luck..let us know how you go..

Had a long chat with my driving friend last night and she put the fear of God into me about driving so luckily she is going to help. :) I now know infinitely more about hitching than I did just one day ago.

She is very excited that I want to learn to drive though because it means I will be available to help HER hitch her green ponies! :lol:

Oh, and she is trying to get me to buy this cart:

http://www.tacktrader.com/show_item.php…" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

which I think might be overkill at this point but it sure is pretty.

That's a Meadowbrook, (or a Meadowbrook type) and they are brilliant carts!
The point is, the driving will [i]make[/i]him go forward, and exercise him to the point that he needs, constantly.
Collies are notoriously "nippy" dogs with kids, but I don't know many Working Sheepdogs that are because they are exercised, body and soul, and have a job to do.
Same with Welshmen, if he is given the amount of exercise he needs to take his mind off naughtiness, the chances are he will settle down under saddle.
We sent a little Welshgirl who was a cow of the second water to Christine Dick, who was "big" in the driving world in every sense of the word....... she leant on the mare and had a word or two with her about working and, when she came home, she would stand up and salute if you told her to, and had decided, overnight, that being ridden by a kid was way better than being driven by a ten ton lady..... :rofl

Haha Rabbit! I agree with you about needing to work (and I have actually used the herding dog analogy with Welshes myself) but Texas is rotten for kids even if I've ridden the snot out of him all week (and I really RIDE him, he's in fantastic shape) so I'm not sure that driving training will ever make him rideable by children. If it gives him something to do and spares him from euthanasia I'll be happy though.

My grand plan now is to see if I can find someone who wants to trade me a cart for a pony. I have a very spiffy three year old who needs to go to a driving home as well and maybe, maybe that person will have some old driving equipment they'd like to trade for him. ;;)

How fun! I miss driving Splash, my mini cart is just hanging in the barn all sad and dusty.
My pony cart, however, is now a chariot, haha! We converted it for latin convention, now instead of being pulled by a shetland it got pulled by 3 high school boys!

I totally lucked out in the "this person is nice and lives near me" department and here is the pony I might get to learn to drive with:

[img]http://lochinvarwelsh.com/jpg/PatienceX…]

Very nice, how would Miss Tickle feel about driving do you think, or Master Cory?

Tickle was a driving champion back in her day so as soon as I learn to drive Patience (above) we'll get Tickle back in the traces. :) Cory is on the list of ponies who will be harness trained as soon as I know what I am doing. I need to be able to do something with him besides lunging. I can ride him at the walk and trot but am just too tall to canter or jump and he's turning into a fat lump.

You'll get hooked, trust me!!
There is nothing like it, there really is not.
Once you get over the initial feeling of being run away with (the cart is a foot or so from you, then you have all of the pony's body, and neck, and head,.....then, some way to control it!! It's a LONG way away!!) it is absolutely great. Give yourself time, go back to riding basics, ie, learn all control at the walk, then go faster. A trot can seem like a gallop....I had a Welsh X mare (Arab/TB) who could trot at a measured 15 miles per hour, and keep it up!! All 13.1hh of her!!

Ooh, one thing, when you start Cory, PLEASE do not assume he is going to need Blinders!
I hate them, along with check reins (I hate check reins more...) and I have never harness trained a horse yet that actually needed them, and the one team I have done, I took Blinders off an 18 year old pony, as the owner did not wish to use blinders (the other pony she had, I had trained, and he had not ever had blinders)
The 18 year old was better than fine, BTW, he loved it and took on a new lease of life......oh, damn, I have to get Bertie going again, I worked him a few weeks ago, and he is four now, so he is different, stronger, eager to go, I need to get him out in traffic, then I have a trail I can use that goes about ten miles in a loop, using an old railway......now see what you have started? :bounce

Do some classes require blinders? I guess it doesn't matter, Cory likely won't be shown in harness (unless he is fabulous or something and Pat wants to show him for me...)

I'm continuing to play with Texas and the long reins and he's the perfect project because he is oddly incredibly patient. The same pony who has no tolerance for errors under saddle stands like a rock while I'm getting him set up in the long reining equipment and does not fuss if I get the lines messed up in his legs or under his tail. I'm having to run a little to keep up with him when we change directions or if I work on the rail instead of on a circle and he isn't sticky at all the way he is under saddle.

I do think I'm going to like it and I've lucked out with Pat because she loves driving so much she talks like an excited girl whenever I call with questions. :lol:

I don't have any experience with driving but always wanted to...Well I take that back once several years ago my dad borrowed a handmade cart and we hitched one of our QH's to it. The cart was poorly balanced and the horse bless his heart had no idea what was happening to him. He was a trooper though and did great but I think we only drove him once because the cart was so poorly balanced.

Anyway, I was wondering...is driving better for a young horse than riding since there isn't the weight on the back? Or are you just asking for a train wreck?

I am told that horses can begin driving a year or so earlier than riding and can sometimes continue it at an age when riding is no longer feasible/comfortable for them.

A lot of pony breeders train their young stock to the cart at two and send them for under saddle training at three.

I think driving training first is ideal and would do it if I had a cart and any inkling of what I was doing, I just ground drive before riding to give them an idea of what working is and wait till 3 to ride and closer to 4 before long rides or anything serious to give their back muscles time to strengthen correctly. Driving is better physically because of the forces on the back. The legs close earlier than the spine so they can start driving pretty early compared to riding and if more people drove perhaps there wouldn't be this push to ride such young horses. I think before cars most horses except like race and some show horses were broken to drive first and only ridden later if they were going to be. (except on the ranches, but they rode older range raised horses anyway)

I treat a harness horse exactly the same as a riding horse....nothing at all until they are two, and then just games, I would never hitch a two year old up, and, quite frankly, I have never had to get a horse "used" to harness, they have all been happy to wear it.
I do start as early as possible asking for a rock solid Whoa, and Stand. Those are the two most useful words in a harness horses repertoire, and can avoid many a train wreck!!
Apart form that and traffic proofing, I do very little till the summer of the third year, that was when I hitched Bertie up first, but I just did a bit of playing around in the field, then he was turned back out.
He is four now, and ready to work, but knows all the groundwork and the rules of the game.
So, No, definitely do not start harness work earlier than saddle work, these things are not governed by the horses physical ability, they are governed by it's mental state as much as anything, and a horse just is not ready to be ridden until it is four years old, even though it may well not be done any harm by having been sat on, and fooled around with, earlier.

Sara, different societies have different rules about blinders, the ADA allows open bridles, but some breed societies may well not.
The AMHA, for example, requires both blinders [i]and[/i] check reins, for reasons that they alone understand!!

Now you guys are making me want to learn how to drive! Especially since I'm probably going to have those ponies coming in, but I think some of my quarter horses would look nice in harness!

If anyone is interested then http://naturaldriving.co.uk/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false; - the saddlechariot looks interesting. It wont take passengers and doesn't look in any way traditional but the rip cord idea seems good. The reasoning is that most accidents in driving occur in the moment between 'osh*t' and 'get the horse unhitched' the rip cord is an instant unhitch.

That's pretty cool!!

In actual fact it is a real non starter. Trust me, I saw this developed and it is just about the stupidest thing going. And expensive. And you have to buy special harness.
A bit like the central hitching cart you can get, another silly idea!
I am a traditionalist and proud of it, I even took a while to get used to the new shafts you can get....

YESH!!!

I cut Texas' price in half and placed a new ad as a driving pony and already have a response!

Oh, and did I tell you guys that I found out he has already been hitched? His old owner taught him to drive. 8-)