Frame Face marking

I honestly have no idea what frame does to the head!? I didn't think it did anything? Everything so far I've seen called frame markings on the head just looks splash to me!!

You're probably going to get a lot of different opinions on this. I personally dont think out causes anything more than a fairly wide blaze. I know others who think it causes bald heads and then others who think our causes no face white at all

Based on what I've seen, frame produces fairly simple face white. Semi-wide blazes that are usually top heavy and quite square looking. Sometimes the whole blaze is a bit diamond shaped (wide part at the top obviously).

Let me see if I can find a few. It's tough isolating frame with no other patterns sometimes.

Ok, now this is MY opinion. As RMT said you will find many, many differing opinions on this subject.

Characteristics of frame face white:

1: Square across the top.
2: Very straight blaze with little rounding, spreading or any other deviation.
3: Jagged blazes (I don't mean irregular blazes, I mean straight blazes with jagged edges, I'll post one below).
4: Blazes that STOP cold just below the upper part of the nostril leaving a black muzzle (could be lower lip white, but not usually visible from the front).
5: Blazes with little fingers shooting off over an eye (has been attributed to splash on occasion, but I see it more with frame).
6: Blazes that spread along the noseband line.
7: Top heavy blazes.

Example of 7, 4 and a little of 2:
http://www.spanishmustang.org/media/kee…" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Example of 6, though despite the lack of leg white I suspect this horse might also be splash:
http://cloud.equinenow.com/250932_1/pth…" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Not really an example of a number, just a typical frameish blaze:
http://www.emeraldglennfarm.com/Fancy%2…" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Example of 4 BIG TIME and subtle example of 6:
http://www.kkindiancreeksmini.com/hemi…" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

This face screams frame at me (and she's tested). Example of 1, 6 and very much 4:
http://www.freewebs.com/anyssapark/Popp…" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Example of 5 and pretty typical looking for frame otherwise:
http://www.freewebs.com/lakesidesportho…" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Absolutely classic frame face IMO. I realize it looks like just a blaze to some, but look how perfectly STRAIGHT it is and how squared off the top edge is. He has no leg white on one obvious frame spot on his ribs. Also note how the white doesn't continue on to the lower lip... something I see alot with frame blazes but not with splash or sabino.
http://miownstoneponies.com/files/drift…" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Subtle example of 2, 5 and 6:
http://desertsandspainthorses.net/siteb…" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Example of 3 at the least:
http://www.streborminis.com/images/sist…" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

I feel sure Lace is also splash, but she has many of these characteristics as well. It's an example of 4, 5, 6 and 7:
http://www.accphotography.com/gallery/d…" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

HTH

Oh and an extreme example of 6 and a bit of 4 as well:
http://www.accphotography.com/gallery/d…" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

The last looks totally splash to me?? That fat welshy blaze looked pretty splash too. None of them really look unique enough for me to be convinced that frame causes blazes. IMO ;)

What's funny is that everything I ever thought was frame, ACC or one other here, has disputed. I have nothing. It had begun to seem though that when in combination with sabino I think it was that it did some weird stuff. I can show you my frame mare's blaze, but I think that there is nothing typical in a blaze where frame is concerned.

Lucky - frame + sabino and probably splash ( out of my frame mare and by a solid quarter horse) no blaze to speak of

[img]http://i694.photobucket.com/albums/vv30…]

Lacy - frame - yes her eye was removed due to infection
[img]http://i694.photobucket.com/albums/vv30…]
[IMG]http://i694.photobucket.com/albums/vv

The important part to me is that they have no leg white. I'm not saying that's proof that it's only frame, I'm just saying I won't even CONSIDER them an example if they have leg white. So to have consistent characteristics among known frames with no leg white is somewhat convincing to me.

[quote="accphotography"]The important part to me is that they have no leg white. I'm not saying that's proof that it's only frame, I'm just saying I won't even CONSIDER them an example if they have leg white. So to have consistent characteristics among known frames with no leg white is somewhat convincing to me.[/quote]

Wha? You mean, no LEG WHITE AT ALL? Lacy is proven Frame and she has plenty of leg white (prego here some years ago).

[img]http://i694.photobucket.com/albums/vv30…]

Her good eye just for good measure - yes - she's ArT * :
[img]http://i694.photobucket.com/albums/vv30…]

Lucky is proven frame and has absolutely white legs - not even socks.

I'm talking about the horses I use as examples. I only use horses with no leg white.

You mean it's less likely that another pattern is interfering with a clear view of frame then, right? Lacy must be also splash as the QH Lucky is out of has not a bit of white. I assume he may have sabino as he had a lil blaze, but....

Bingo. And yes, given the leg white I think sabino at the very least on your Lacy.

[quote="accphotography"]I'm talking about the horses I use as examples. I only use horses with no leg white.[/quote]

I realise that makes it less likely that there is other patterns, but I know with the shetland ponies they don't have socks, and very occassionally they will have face white. No usually full blazes without the tobi there to boost(or the tobi overiding the white supressor), but when present without tobi I have seen top heavy stars combined with a snip, or a bottom heavy stripe etc.. Which has always thought to be splash, and they don't have any leg white to go with it. So I don't necessarily see no leg white meaning no splash. Less likely to be splash sure, but not ruled out. Especially when a marking is also common on non frames.

But are the markings really common on non frames?

That white coming down between the eye and mouth I think is common enough in the louder patterned non frames. I'm think more the Gypsies when I say that, not the shetlands though. I do admit I'm not that familar with frames, so if something looks 'common' to me it would be on non frames. Some of the other points you brought up though I'm going to think about and see if they occur in the patterned non frames. Things I don't usually look for!

So although I'm not convinced frame does any face white, I'm prepared to be convinced!! :D

That characteristic is the one I am most willing of all to credit to splash... so that theory doesn't bother me a bit.

Do let me know if you start noticing some of these regularly in non frames. I'm always happy to edit my frame characteristics list because it's a hard thing to get a handle on with so much mixing of patterns.

FWIW, I don't see any reason why frame wouldn't put face white on.

If you got to my website http://www.jazzyfivefarm.com" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false; and go to Codys Poco Breeze, the only color pattern that mare carries is frame, expressed minimally only on her face and 2 tiny socks, she is tested positive for LWO so it is confirmed, and you can see a pic of her foal on the sold page Spooks Poco Belle out of a black tobi stud, she threw frame on that filly.

I guess that depends on your interpretation of current theory. Theory is that frame doesn't cause leg white and thus she would have another pattern causing that. To me she looks splash as well (don't necessarily see the frame but between the eyes and the lack of leg white I'd have suspected it). The foal has tobi so hard to see how much frame is there, but the face is [i]classic[/i] splash and I never noticed your stallion having/throwing it.

[img]http://i24.photobucket.com/albums/c10/J…]
the mare

[img]http://i24.photobucket.com/albums/c10/J…]
her first foal out of a homozygous tobi stud, who also carried sabino and splash

[img]http://i24.photobucket.com/albums/c10/J…]
[img]http://i24.photobucket.com/albums/c10/J…]
second filly out of my tobi stud, no leg white, just face white, no roaning or ticking on her anywhere, just a nice big false dorsal like her dam

That bay with the broken blaze looks like some of the shetties look, I always figured it was supressed splash as they don't get socks either?

Here is Rowdy one the most famous mini horse stallions who was frame -

http://www.theminiaturehorse.com/histor…" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

and one of his sons with just a star and belly spot -
http://www.google.co.uk/imgres?imgurl=h…" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Hmmm, well that doesn't really narrow it down now does it? :rofl :rofl

I didn't realize there was such a wide range of opinions.

Ok still trying to get a concept of what you are calling frame Acc. I can find heaps of non frames with the white between the eye and mouth, but not sure if there was something specific you were looking for with it.

I thought I'd post this colt though, as he's cool with his one dark leg.

[img]http://img692.imageshack.us/img692/1604…]
[img]http://img709.imageshack.us/img709/4743…]

The white on the nose stopping. I'm not sure exactly what you are looking for either. These two have a dark nose, but I don't think that's what you mean?

[img]http://img15.imageshack.us/img15/9179/d…]
[img]http://img690.imageshack.us/img690/5593…]

I'm not sure I can precisely describe what I am attributing to frame in those areas, but I can tell you that I would have blamed the second one on splash for sure, and probably the first one too due to the fact that it's lopsided (the first one looks a bit DW too maybe).

to me, the first horse shows what happens when both splash and sabino are fighting for position on the face (with splash taking a slight lead!)

Diane

For what it is worth, I have three lab tested Frames. First is McSperitts Rowdy Night Image (grandson of Rowdy, posted above).
[img]http://i20.photobucket.com/albums/b218/…]

[img]http://i20.photobucket.com/albums/b218/…]

This is a yearling son of his, Songcatchers Walking After Midnight, out of a minimally marked Tobiano mare.
[img]http://i20.photobucket.com/albums/b218/…]
Weanling picture that shows his blaze better:
[img]http://i20.photobucket.com/albums/b218/…]

This is the minimally marked Tobi mare he is out of (just for reference)and there is no more white on the other side than on this:
[img]http://i20.photobucket.com/albums/b218/…]

And this mare, who obviously has something in addition to Frame:
[img]http://i20.photobucket.com/albums/b218/…]

I usually just check symmetry and if the top or bottom is wider to make a guess, along with socks.

Splash: almost always asymmetrical, generally narrow on top or just a snip. Some blazes will be fairly straight but widen at the nostrils and curve to the lips. Ends at lips or nostrils. bald faces wrap under chin/jaw with mustaches common. Socks: not even, commonly hind are higher, both or onw, sometimes front are higher, sometimes both on a side. Socks end bluntly and horizontal. Hooves completely white where stocking touches.

Frame: wider on top, middle, or even. Symmetrical. Stars common. short or no socks.

Sabino: jagged, symmetrical, even width, eyeliner on balds. Hind socks pointed on front. Large stripes on hooves possible.

Then of course there's Minimal Tobi of which the one above is classic. socks sort of look like with splash but complete ermine's around hoof and chestnuts and dark hooves and fuzzy edges to sock tops.

That's as close to a description as I'm willing to go.

Songcatcher, that first one would be a splash/frame imo. #2 only frame

I definitely see the frame on #2 and maybe #1. The mostly white one I'd have suspected. The face white on #2 screams frame to me.

[quote="Morgan"]I usually just check symmetry and if the top or bottom is wider to make a guess, along with socks.

Splash: almost always asymmetrical, generally narrow on top or just a snip. Some blazes will be fairly straight but widen at the nostrils and curve to the lips. Ends at lips or nostrils. bald faces wrap under chin/jaw with mustaches common. Socks: not even, commonly hind are higher, both or onw, sometimes front are higher, sometimes both on a side. Socks end bluntly and horizontal. Hooves completely white where stocking touches.

Frame: wider on top, middle, or even. Symmetrical. Stars common. short or no socks.

Sabino: jagged, symmetrical, even width, eyeliner on balds. Hind socks pointed on front. Large stripes on hooves possible.

Then of course there's Minimal Tobi of which the one above is classic. socks sort of look like with splash but complete ermine's around hoof and chestnuts and dark hooves and fuzzy edges to sock tops.

That's as close to a description as I'm willing to go.

Songcatcher, that first one would be a splash/frame imo. #2 only frame[/quote]

Oh! I have seen larger solid striped on Paint horse hoofs of course, but Annie has stripes on all of her hoofs moore like an Appy. I know she has Sabino because of her inverted V socks, but are her striped hooves a sabino trait as well?

You found it! I had to go looking....

So - if frame gives a symmetrical blaze, then what's up with Rowdy's son's blaze? Think that's something else? He looks solid except the snip and star....