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Sorrel but chesnut, maybe?

Bluwind_Acres May 29, 2010 February 22, 2011

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Ok well my colt's dam is quite unique if I must say. she's sorrel through her body and has black (which ends up being just black smudges during the winter) AND cream type dapples her nose instead of fading to black skin its 'mealy' then most unique is her mane and tail its not flaxen its BLACK like jet black with silver and white hairs. the only white markings she has is her blaze. I no longer have this mare So ill post pictures of her soon. I also have her 3 year old son who was born a perfect sorrel (by a Sooty buckskin stallion) he had some slight counter shading that made him look like he had a dorsal. as he's aged his mane and tail have slowly become BLACKER and now Ive spotted afew random white hairs coming in. each year he it getting more and more like his dam in color. so I will post pictures of him as he's grown. at 7 months old he looked like a classic chestnut. but now he's sorrel in body like a copper penny with that ever darkening mane and tail he still has 'gaurd hairs' that are still sorrel but they become fewer and fewer each year. OH and the mare was tested for silver and was negative. I need to get new pictures of him this year before I cut his mane but until then: [b]The Mare:[/b] [img]http://i45.tinypic.com/2daahdg.jpg[/img] [img]http://i46.tinypic.com/1zokaie.jpg[/img] Her with her winter coat: [img]http://i47.tinypic.com/2qi6b2u.jpg[/img] [b]Mare's Son:[/b] as a baby: [img]http://i45.tinypic.com/2nvayqb.jpg[/img] afew months old: [img]http://i45.tinypic.com/30m6dr9.jpg[/img] the counter shading when he was younger: [img]http://i48.tinypic.com/29nf5fc.jpg[/img] 6-7 months old: [img]http://i50.tinypic.com/xprih0.jpg[/img] [img]http://i45.tinypic.com/20sddvc.jpg[/img] (the next one he is going through a ugly stage and I only took one picture of him and even then its not that great) Yearling year: [img]http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v200/Bluwindsummer/DSCF3068.jpg[/img] Spring 2 year old year: [img]http://i37.tinypic.com/x6mpza.jpg[/img] Early Fall/late summer 2 year old year- [img]http://i33.tinypic.com/35jxyxh.jpg[/img] Late Fall: (sorry the pic is kinna dark but you can see the roots of his mane and the darkening points on his hocks) [img]http://i50.tinypic.com/w1xto1.jpg[/img] [b]Son's Sire:[/b] [img]http://i33.tinypic.com/352gbcw.jpg[/img] (as a foal he had heavy 'frosting'[white hair over his black hair] it didnt totally disappear until he was 5 or 6. he also had a metallic Sheen over his coat best cautured in the above picture)

rabbitsfizz Sat, 05/29/2010 - 04:32

Hiya and welcome.
First off there is no genetic difference between Sorrel and Chestnut.
Third up, OK, sit down please!!!
I do not think either horse is Sorrel.
I actually think they are, or could be, Silver Bay.
You might like to have them tested....wouldn't that be a blast? :bounce

Daylene Alford Sat, 05/29/2010 - 08:31

These are QH's? In the US? If that is the case silver bay is only a remote possibility. It's possible but not likely. Silver in QH's at least the ones we've seen so far tends to present much darker. Plus in the foal picture the eyelashes do not appear to be white. White eyelashes on a foal, while not definite, are a pretty good rule of thumb when identifying silver (unless they are caused by a white pattern).

Taking into account the things I just mentioned I'm going to say flaxen chestnut (as Rabbit said chestnut and sorrel are genetically the same).

Now if they are not QH's then silver bay would be more likely.

Third Peppermint Sat, 05/29/2010 - 08:38

I saw a filly that looked just like that - flaxen chestnut with lots of black in her mane and tail. She tested as bay, though. Unfortunately, she's an Andalusian. I think silver is probably less likely in one of those than in a QH?

Bluwind_Acres Sat, 05/29/2010 - 14:18

guess I forgot to mention she negative for silver. she was already tested he hasnt been but the only place he would get it from is the dam. almost his whole pedigree is mared sorrel though and Im guessing that as a foal she was born the same color as the colt was. each yer he's getting more black hair less other colors and the white/silver is coming in. yes these are US AQHAs.

I think in another 2 years the colt will be nearly identicle to her. pictures were taken of her at 8 & 9 years old. he's only just turned three Im going to head out and take some nice fresh pictures of him today. the mare's mane and tail was nothing id ever seen or anyone else Ive met so far has ever seen and those who have say she's silver dapple! I dont own the mare anymore so testing her now is impossible as Ive written the new owner afew times and got nothing back. I AM considering testing him just to see. out of the different arguments and after taking the 2 hours to read more about genetics (they always fascinate me) I think they are a sorrel with the smutty modifier. another thought was maybe we are seeing smutty in its more homozygous form? the sire was thought to carry the smutty gene and the mare obviously is carrying something I mean this mare's forelock was silver! her hair wasnt white like you would see on like a paint and it wasnt off white or white like you see in flaxen it was a super light grey (silver)

thanks!

Bluwind_Acres Sat, 05/29/2010 - 15:23

the only way I can describe the way his hair is coloring is like a norwegian fjord (sp?) his mane and tail are black with the stray white hairs through the core and base but on the outsides its the sorrel type flaxen hairs but they dont mix with his black mane here are some pics of his mane split down the middle (it didnt like it very much though) you can see the brown 'underneath' but not with the black hair. the forelock shot shows a little what im talking about as you can see the black roots and the edge are all brown. I also got a rump shot so show that his counter shading never really disappeared (sorry he's so dirty and still shedding, his counter shading is the same color as his winter hair.) and thats one thing both horse's winter coats were definately the shade of chestnut then again there isnt a horse I know whose winter coat isnt darker in the winter, i mean unless they are a version of white or totally greyed out lol.

the picture of the mare where she was grazing (in the first post) was taken in the shade so she looks darker than she is but it was the only picture that showed her dappling.

[img]http://i48.tinypic.com/mlqx09.jpg[/img]

(a closer look)

[img]http://i49.tinypic.com/mwv82e.jpg[/img]

[img]http://i46.tinypic.com/2vj8neo.jpg[/img]

(his rump)
[img]http://i45.tinypic.com/10igooy.jpg[/img]

accphotography Sat, 05/29/2010 - 17:04

I too thought they could be odd, maximally expressed silvers. I encouraged testing, but alas, they (well the mare) were negative. At this point I chalk them up to flaxen with an odd dose of sooty. I've seen it a bit in both Welsh and Morgans.

Here's a Quarter Horse (palomino) with something similar:
[img]http://www.whitehorseproductions.com/im…]

lipigirl Sat, 05/29/2010 - 17:45

My old chesnut had a lot of black and white in his tail, sometimes I just think they just do however this one sure was a candidate for silver :?

Bluwind_Acres Sat, 05/29/2010 - 17:52

wow thats one very cool palomino! yeah I have no idea what's going on with thier mane and tail. its likely not related but the mare had those black grease spots (about 4) the colt (well gelding lol) has about 20 of them! yes I counted lol.

Bluwind_Acres Sat, 05/29/2010 - 18:32

You can see one of his grease spots in the picture of his rump. they range in color from dark dark chestnut to just a shade different. if they were all black I'd swear he was part appy lol. his sire was suspected to be smutty I have pictures of his dorsal that was darker than the usual over shadow. here is the picture:

[img]http://i47.tinypic.com/4j5ngo.jpg[/img]

Heidi Sat, 05/29/2010 - 21:12

Wow. I thought the dam was definitely Silver Bay. :oops: She certainly looks like it.
The colt/gelding, well, he looks chestnut all the way down to his feet.
[i]My chestnut mare was red-red-red after her first winter shed to dark hair. I always thought she shed and went from nekkid (dark/black skin) and then her spring coat came in red. Her mane/tail was a thick mix of hairs of all colors ranging from silver strands, through the pale yellows to deepest reds and finally to almost-black ... but it was definitely all mingled and not restricted to inner and outer mane hair.[/i]
Are you sure the lighter hairs aren't just sun-bleached?

Bluwind_Acres Sat, 05/29/2010 - 22:24

Ive seen bleaching Ive seen blacks bleach to brown, pali's fade to almost white. his brown hairs on the outsides are slowly starting to bleach as they used to be dark chestnut and well you can see thier color in the forelock shot. the whites seem to only be with the black hairs on the inside. they arent all mixed with brown hairs which obviously would just be flaxen :P. if Im right the brown hairs will eventually disappear and will be just black with silver mixed through like his dam. his body shade of brown is slightly darker than her's was she was always a lighter copper than he is. also note he too has the mealy look around his nose.

Jenks Mon, 05/31/2010 - 22:20

Well! You can expect him to look like her in short order!

Very interesting. I think I'd have him tested for Cream, Agouti, Extension, heck..run the gamut. You must find out for sure if it's anything known~ ya know?

Bluwind_Acres Fri, 06/11/2010 - 16:05

[quote="Jenks"]Well! You can expect him to look like her in short order!

Very interesting. I think I'd have him tested for Cream, Agouti, Extension, heck..run the gamut. You must find out for sure if it's anything known~ ya know?[/quote]

yeah if I had the money, show season is costing a fortune. my luck and Id test for it all and Id end up with just a red based horse :hammer .