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Silver?

Itz July 30, 2011 July 30, 2011

Forums

I'd like to start with mentioning that this is not my horse. The owner was however asking for what color we thought he was (the one at the top of the page). It's a mini. I don't know the exact age of him on the first photo, but I think he's about one year old in the secont photo (with a lot of winter coat!). The sire looks like a near leopard to me, and it looks like he has a silver dapple base from the single photo I've seen. The dam looks like a bay/brown baser tobiano, and probably frame as well. There's a lot of white tickeling on the colored parts of the body, but from the photos ot's difficult to tell if she's roan of if it's some kind och sabino tickeling. But based on these photos, what would you say about his color? I can't provide any photos of the dam and sire as I'm not the owner of them and therefore don't want to upload them, so I'm asking out of pure curiosity:P

critterkeeper Sun, 07/31/2011 - 13:51

:-? From those pixs it is difficult to really tell what color he is. He could be silver, but he could be something else entirely. Could you get a full side view of this colt? A full top view would be even better(full mane and tail head included)...

Daylene Alford Sun, 07/31/2011 - 14:51

I'm going to say not silver. It's hard to tell for sure, but it looks like the foals eye lashes are the same color as the body and I would expect them to be white or lighter in a silver foal.

critterkeeper Sun, 07/31/2011 - 15:00

:-t Shoot, I thought they looked light in the last pix, at least on my monitor...almost white...but maybe it's me... :rofl

critterkeeper Sun, 07/31/2011 - 15:01

:-t Shoot, I thought they looked light in the last pix, at least on my monitor...almost white...but maybe it's me... :rofl .

Itz Mon, 08/01/2011 - 11:10

Since I didn't take the photos I can't upload any photos myself, but the owner just uploaded a few new ones of the horse and the dam and sire. Go to the link and go to the next page and you'll find them there:)
The closest thing to a full body photo of him as a yearling is the third photo in the row, where he can be seen in the background.

Monsterpony Mon, 08/01/2011 - 15:03

I don't see silver in any of them. Google Chrome (poorly)translated the page and I think that the lightness she is referring to in the stud's mane is due to appy and not silver. Sire is black blanket appaloosa that is varnish roaning and dam is a brown tobiano/splash. Foal is a brown/dark bay.

Itz Mon, 08/01/2011 - 17:21

Thanks for the input! It's always interesting to hear peoples opinions:) What color would you say that the foal was?

The dark bay/brown foal in the foreground in the third photo isn't related to the foal we're talking about in this case though. Just thought I might add that:P

Monsterpony Mon, 08/01/2011 - 20:46

Oh, oops. I completely missed which foal we were talking about. I think the foal in question might be chestnut with some sabino roaning and splash splash going on. A full on side shot without all the clumped up winter hair would make it easier to tell.

Itz Tue, 08/02/2011 - 05:52

Oh, no worries!;)
He will be shipped to the new owner at the end of August I think, so hoefulle she'll update with new photos when she gets him. I'll make sure to update if that happens!

Outlaw Thu, 11/10/2011 - 10:26

Here are some new pictures of my little guy. Have had him tested for red/black & agouti with the result E/e & A/A.

Now clipped:
[img=400x300]http://proxy1.pixbox.se/arkivet/synligt…]

[img=300x400]http://proxy1.pixbox.se/arkivet/synligt…] [img=300x380]http://proxy1.pixbox.se/arkivet/synligt…]

Before in winter coat:
[img=300x400]http://proxy1.pixbox.se/arkivet/synligt…]

[img=400x300]http://proxy1.pixbox.se/arkivet/synligt…]

Maigray Fri, 11/11/2011 - 09:24

Hooo boy, this one is a puzzle. Okay, he's bay, at least we know that. I do believe sabino roaning is doing a bang up job on him, and I think Lp might be involved as well. But he is definitely a chameleon. He also has splash sabino markings.

For reference, here is a colt from our gallery with extensive splash/sabino markings, who was born looking chestnut but tested out as bay and has eventually had his black pigment come in as he matured.

http://colorgenetics.info/equine/galler…

http://colorgenetics.info/equine/galler…

http://colorgenetics.info/equine/galler…

Itz Fri, 11/11/2011 - 11:31

I got permission from the owner to post a few more photos.

What I find interesting is that his sire apparantly is bay, not black based: [img]http://gbg-pop.pixbox.se/arkivet/synlig…] [img]http://gbg-pop.pixbox.se/arkivet/synlig…]
I would have guessed black based without agouti. Does these test specify if they are A or At, or do you have to test separatly for that?
And here is the dam: [img]http://gbg-pop.pixbox.se/arkivet/synlig…]
I believe that there were more photos of her somewhere, but canät seem to find them.

The minis certainly seem to be tricky ones!

Monsterpony Fri, 11/11/2011 - 13:04

I think that he is probably going have his points darken. I am still not convinced on silver. The sire could be brown (which you have to test separately for) or it could be appaloosa messing with color like it loves to do.

Outlaw Tue, 12/13/2011 - 13:39

*little update*
I will have a new color test on him now after Christmas. Think I'll have him tested for sabino, silver and overo. Is there any thing you think I should add or not test for ? Now after his coat have grow out he looks like this. Still no black on his body and his front legs are really confusing me, they are light one is white but there are no white socks they just fade to light.

[url=http://postimage.org/image/8w78xikeb/][…] [url=http://postimage.org/image/eab326gg3/][…]

Outlaw Thu, 12/15/2011 - 10:57

I know but he is'nt he's testad and is homozygot for bay (E/e & A/A).
That's why I'll have him tested for silver and sabino too.

rabbitsfizz Thu, 12/15/2011 - 12:52

Well, he is H/Z for Agouti- it is slightly different. He can still throw sorrels but they will carry Agouti. I think he has Pangaré.

Outlaw Thu, 12/15/2011 - 16:10

This is what UC Davies result showed:
"Coat Color results for SLC Blazing Outlaw(DT28675):

Red-Factor Result:
E/e - Both black and red factors detected. Either E or e transmitted to offspring. Basic color is black, bay or brown in the absence of other modifying genes.

Agouti Result:
A/A - Black pigment distributed in points pattern. Basic color is bay or brown in the absence of other modifying genes."

Pangaré have what I've seen not affected the base color on the legs off bay horses but maybe miniatures are different.

Monsterpony Thu, 12/15/2011 - 16:53

Pangare only affects red pigment so it wouldn't affect a bay horse's legs. But young bay horses can take several years to fully express the black on their legs.

rabbitsfizz Fri, 12/16/2011 - 11:14

Yes, it was not on his legs I was noticing it, btw, but I still think he has it.
The test says he is h/Z for Black and H/Z for Agouti, that means even his Red based foals will have Agouti, but it will not show, it does not mean he is H/Z for Bay as that would mean he could only throw Bays or Buckskins or Silver Bays....you get the picture

NZ Appaloosas Fri, 12/30/2011 - 20:04

[quote=Itz]I got permission from the owner to post a few more photos.

What I find interesting is that his sire apparantly is bay, not black based: [/quote]

Bay IS black-based. Agouti works on black, not on red.

Outlaw Sat, 01/28/2012 - 16:17

Here are the new result.
[quote]Coat Color results for SLC Blazing Outlaw(DT29238):
Silver Result:
N/N - No evidence of the altered sequence detected.
Overo Result:
N/N - No evidence for the altered sequence detected.
Sabino 1 Result:
N/SB1 - One copy of the Sabino 1 gene detected. Horse typically may have 2 or more white legs, blaze, spots or roaning in the midsection and jagged margins around white areas.
[/quote]
So no silver on him, but just when I know his color he start to change again. Now He has some white spots on his cheek. Don't know if it's the sabino gene or some thing else :-?

[url=http://postimage.org/image/5mmhiw05f/][…] [url=http://postimage.org/image/accf7hr5v/][…]

rabbitsfizz Sat, 01/28/2012 - 17:33

How can we be sure that Pangaré does not affect black based animals when there is no test for Pangaré? I have seen many bays that show signs of what I had always assumed was Pangaré.....

Threnody Sun, 01/29/2012 - 08:59

Pangare definitely effects bay. It's not that pangare doesn't express on black bases, it that it doesn't express on black [u]pigment[/u].

http://www.marlynfarms.com/images/404_l…

It lightens the red pigment on bay and brown muzzles and soft areas since agouti caused red pigment to be expressed on a black base. The exmoor ponies are a great example. It just doesn't have much effect on black pigment itself. So the bay based pangares don't have diluted manes and tails like chestnut based pangares.

As for the legs I know a bay horse who gets the lighter hairs on the insides of his legs in winter and expresses false pangare with this longer coat. Come summer and the shed and he doesn't have any sign of those lighter hairs.

Threnody Mon, 01/30/2012 - 14:07

That's an adorable little brown. :) He looks like he sunbleached a bit in the summer pic so that might be contributing. I have a freind who's brown OTTB looks practically sooty buckskin in the summer.

They isolated the pangare locus in donkeys and have a test for it. But donkey pangare works on both black [u]and [/u]red pigment. I wonder if donkey and horse pangare may share a similar genetic location though.