Horse & Rider's Julie Thorson "Bet You've Never Seen ..."

I still say she's tobi.

She tested negative for tobiano.

I still say she's tobi. :rofl ;)

I've seen mismarks on Appaloosas before, but never anything like that!

If she was tobiano + leopard, the white areas would be solid white (no spots) and the bay areas would be white with bay spots.

Ummmm don't mean to be negative but she's not THAT unusual is she ?! I agree she looks tobi but obviously not if tested

The thing I like best about her is that if you made her solid Bay she would still be a very nice filly, so the pattern is just "icing".
She obviously has something else going on as she has a flash on her shoulder (that is a typical minimal Tobi mark) with no spots on it.
I think it may be a chimera mimicing Tobi, though.

Tobiano was actually my second though, chimera was first. She is beautiful!

In addition to the flash on her neck she also has a swatch right at the end of her croup and across her tail head, plus interesting shaped stockings... classic tobi markings IMO. I'm not including the body white as it doesn't look that abnormal to me. Tobis can have spots in their white too though (from tobi, not LP obviously). As frequently as KIT mutates, I wouldn't be surprised to hear there was a KIT mutation floating around that mimics tobi.

I can't see how she can be tobi, the white bits would be white, and the spots would be in the coloured sections, Appy spots aren't the same as white markings, they are a modification of the coloured parts of a horse and white markings over ride them.
I have noticed that chimeras or gold spot markings can sometimes follow the same pattern as white markings, say the horse might have a blaze or sock but in a different colour not white.

You are right I am also thinking about other pintaloosa's that I have seen and yes the white should be clear of spots in that case - so if they are also possibly thinking Chimera why have they not tested for that ? ymwhisle

This is what the owner said on the website:

"This filly is mine and I asked two experts about chimera....No chimera. They told me that their opinion is that my horse is genetically speaking a normal Appaloosa that, during development in the womb, ended up experiencing a series of random events during a critical stage in melanocyte development and migration that resulted in her having large areas of normal pigmentation, instead of being a leopard, which is what she appears to have been genetically programmed to be. Since this is a developmental error, and not something caused by a mutation, she should reproduce normally, and have foals that have more conventional Appaloosa-looking patterning."

Uni is definitely not tobi, I know her owner, and was involved with the discussion both pre- and post-tobi testing. Whatever she's got going on to affect "normal" Lp expression, she's definitely free of tobiano.

Dogrose, wish more of the appy people had your understanding...there are those who still say Uni shouldn't have ApHC papers despite the negative tobiano test.

Diane

I don't think it could be said she's not tobi any more than it could be said a horse isn't splash. She's just not the form of tobi that can be tested for now (if her test results were accurate).

Seriously, ACC. From that comment, we might as throw all genetic testing out the window because they can't be trusted due to zillions of mutations all doing the same thing.

Diane

Well it's true and you know it! As long as her test was accurate (we have ALL seen testing errors) then she is NOT the tobiano we know of. However, IMO, that does NOT preclude her from carrying something we don't know about yet!

Well I don't think she's the tobi we know of because she tested as not having it :lol: But also because as others have said, the appy wouldn't show up in the white. IF she was tobi, they'd have to be tobi spots and not appy spots! :shock:

But she's a nice filly, and I think she looks very cool!

The problem is people focus on the spots and "they're wrong"...the more likely scenario is as Jan's comment which was copied over to here; Uni has unusually large mismarks in her leopard pattern. So, no, there is absolutely nothing "tobi" about her, nor is it likely there is anything other than "appy" going on with her, and whatever, probably non-genetic, caused the mismarks.

Diane

[quote="Danni"]Well I don't think she's the tobi we know of because she tested as not having it :lol: But also because as others have said, the appy wouldn't show up in the white. IF she was tobi, they'd have to be tobi spots and not appy spots! :shock:

But she's a nice filly, and I think she looks very cool![/quote]

Her body white (that has the spots) doesn't look tobi to me. But that swatch on her neck, the swatch on her bum and the stockings darn sure do.

We could argue til we're all blue in the face, but the one thing I firmly believe about genetics is that one HAS to keep an open mind...

It would be foolish not to register her..... She is gorgeous - and from registered parents I think it's a right. I mean....come on.

I think its pretty obious that its something other than tobi, especially with the face. We've seen freakishly large expressions of odd color things before. I saw a fleabitten grey the other day with three large blood markings to the extent he was half covered in them.(it was really pretty)

Is this similar to the Appy marked QH?

No, the appy marked QH has a typical appy blanket.

Now hang on....the test aside, it could [i]easily[/i] be Tobiano and have the face white that is NOT ascribed to the "pinto" marking anyway!!!
Since if it were Splash/Sabino face white it would not have spots on it, so the face white cannot be ascribed to the "pinto"
Also, why is Tobiano considered to be synonymous with Pinto in Appies?
What about Sabino/Splash/Frame?
The foal obviously [i]does[/i] have pinto markings, are they OK then, because they are not Tobiano?
And here I thought the AMHA was bad!!
For the record, the filly appears to have quite classic Tobiano markings, so people who believed her to be so can be forgiven, but as we know, visual recognition just cannot contend with actual DNA proof.
I [i]should[/i] like to see her retested, though.
As to the Chimera, without an actual DNA test I would be really bothered if a flock of experts roosted in her stable, she looks like a chimera to me......
If they tested the "wrong bit" of a chimera, would it show Tobiano?

I've seen tobis with faces just like hers. No, if she's chimeric and they didn't test the right portions she wouldn't show tobi even if some portions of her are.

My first thought when I saw the filly was "mismarks gone wild!" I still think that's what it is. She certainly isn't the first leopard with mismarks that has been mistaken for a "pintaloosa", although she's the most extreme I've seen. All of the pinto patterns put white markings on horses, not patches of brown. Tobiano + leopard simply does NOT look like that. I see no reason to doubt the accuracy of the test.

That's just it. I'm NOT talking about tobiano adding color. I'm not talking about tobiano having LP spots on top of it. I'm merely talking about her stocking, the swatch on her neck and the swatch on her butt. Everything else is clearly LP's work IMO. But imagine her body white on this known tobiano:

[img]http://i173.photobucket.com/albums/w65/…]

Very similar look.

If her body white was on that tobiano, all of the base coat color would be leopard spotted, and the legs and neck patch would have the tobi spots. No, even if the filly WAS tobiano + LP, that wouldn't explain the patches of solid bay. That's not the way tobiano works.

Only if she was a full leopard and not a ... whatever she is! LOL! I know how tobi works... it's the LP messing up the picture!

Exactly! Now you're getting the picture! The filly SHOULD be a full leopard...but something is messing up the picture. It can't be tobiano. It could be chimera, although I'm not sure chimera would manifest itself in that sort of pattern. The most logical explanation is that it's mismarks gone wild.

My question is WHY "SHOULD" she be a leopard? I don't see any reason to think she should have been. *shrugs*