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Dark chestnut of some sort or Bay/Wild bay?

PonyStar May 24, 2010 February 22, 2011

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Hi there! I have a little canandrum in my new horse, a hanoverian gelding. Father: Laurentio, classic bay colour. Mother: Marina, "brown" it says on papers. Mothers mother: Chestnut. When i bought him in Januari i was sure he was a dark chestnut, not even a question about it since he had no black at all on his legs. He was however trimmed (or whatever it's called..you know take all the hair off so he doesn't sweat so much) whole body and legs, but the past owner who trimmed him missed huge bits on the legs and it showed him being normal chestnut below the front knees (carpelle or whatever, they don't have front knees of course really but you know...) His tail also was showing a redish tone to it even though there is almost no sun here in the wintertime that could have bleached it. (Now i have cut a lot of it off at the end so this is why there is no red a.t.m.) But now in the summer he has changed quite a lot, he is still not really black on the legs but it's more of a dark chocolate colour mixed with the basecoat on the legs. The fact that he has long white socks on all four legs doesn't help me in deciding. Anyway, i thought i would see what you guys think! Also, i really want to clear up this thing about points and agouti gene. -Can a bay horse (not liver chestnut or seal brown or anything, just the classic bay with dark points) have legs that are not black? I was always taught that they had to have black points and black above the knee in the front but after looking around now i'm not so sure, due to the wild bay thing....this confuses me! In januari when i bought him. [b]Note the redish tail and chestnut right front leg (hair which is not trimmed)[/b] [url=http://www.pixbox.se/pic30327658][img]http://archive.pixbox.se/arkivet/…] Close-up on same front leg [url=http://www.pixbox.se/pic30938139][img]http://archive.pixbox.se/arkivet/…] Head and ear in feb/march sometime [url=http://www.pixbox.se/pic30420559][img]http://archive.pixbox.se/arkivet/…] Spring time colour, april, coat is growing out. Legs are chocolate brown in reality too. [url=http://www.pixbox.se/pic30746124][img]http://archive.pixbox.se/arkivet/…] April [url=http://www.pixbox.se/pic30818967][img]http://archive.pixbox.se/arkivet/…] May, tail cut. (standing over front legs more than usual because he was on his way forwards lol) [url=http://www.pixbox.se/pic30937557][img]http://archive.pixbox.se/arkivet/…] Same front leg now taken with better camera (still is more chocolate brown than black hairs) [url=http://www.pixbox.se/pic31003669][img]http://archive.pixbox.se/arkivet/…] So....give me your educated opinions please :)

nerd Mon, 05/24/2010 - 16:32

You horse looks very bay to me. Bays can have non-black legs--we call extreme versions of this wild bay. In my experience, even in horses that look otherwise clearly bay, it's fairly common for the area around the cannon bone, especially near the top of the flexor tendons, to be slightly lighter shade and not fully black. On plain bays it's usually a reddish color, while on lighter bays it can be more of a tan color. I think that's what you're seeing in the clipped pictures. I've also noticed that it can change seasonally and that legs tend to get darker with age (but all my evidence is anecdotal so don't quote me on that).

PonyStar Mon, 05/24/2010 - 16:54

Yeah i mean i think he looks really normal bay now too, apart maybe from the legs, they are the ones that confuse me a bit, plus that we where all sure he was a chestnut when we got him so the mind sort of plays with 'ya a bit them lol! (My vet. and an Id-controller person id's him as chestnut so i wasn't alone in thinking he was....but even back then i was still a little bit unsure)

I guess it's 'cos i haven't seen these wild bay horses much and i really don't get how the genetics work on them? (tried to read but didn't really got it lol)

Also i always hear different things on the whole points and bay thing...so i dunno...
Is there any research that is accredited so to speak on wild bay agouti genetics and how it works?

PonyStar Thu, 05/27/2010 - 01:08

I agree about the lighting, half the photos are from a mobile but i will try to get some proper ones of him today with the focus om getting the colour as it is and closeup of mane and tail. (That wasn't exactly the focus when we took the photos before lol)

Thanks for the answers so far! :)

PonyStar Wed, 07/07/2010 - 16:08

So...now i'm back ;)

He still looks kinda bay, but i guess i'll have to wait until winter again and see if he changes again before i totally can decide for myself.

But...now i have a new little thing i am wondering about.
I don't know what it is called in english but it is white little hairs blended all over the body.
It's not so uncommon, but someone said that he may have rabicano gene since he also has white hairs in his tail (don't have pics of that though, yet)

Is this true and how do i tell difference between rabicano and sabino?
Since he totally has sabino (that i am not wrong about at least) is it not more likely to be that causing the white hairs on the body and tail? (or doesn't sabino cause that?)

Here's a close up of body, this is on the right hand side of the swirl before the bum (flank?) but he has it all over.
[url=http://www.pixbox.se/pic31254263][img]h…]

Here's also a (bad) photo of his tail, at the end.
This is the colour it is all year round, not just in the summer. (it's more red but crap mobile...)
[url=http://www.pixbox.se/pic31254259][img]h…]

ps: anyone know where i can do a colour test in Sweden? an how much it costs?

PonyStar Wed, 07/07/2010 - 17:21

Yeah i would not thisk he is rabicano, i am just not sure if sabino can cause white in tail and mane and teh hairs on his body, but i think so right?

I forgot to say he actually has some white in his mane too, in the start, but i always forget since i cut it there!

It's at the top of the withers, i can't be sure if it is from badly fitted saddle or if it is there on it's own.
It's in a place that would be hard to fit a saddle on though since it is right on the top of the withers and he has large one so...i don't know...maybe nothing or maybe has something to do with the tail etc.
Who knows lol!

PonyStar Wed, 07/07/2010 - 17:43

Ah ok thanks! Then that is the most likely thing for that i fell, since he is sabino for sure at least lol.

Maybe sabino explains the rather jazzy blaze he has then too :)

[url=http://www.pixbox.se/pic30648962][img]h…]
[url=http://www.pixbox.se/pic30943662][img]h…]

It's so funny, it looks like someone took a sponge and wiped away at the middle or something, but at least no one can replicate him too easely and steal his ID or something lol

PonyStar Wed, 07/07/2010 - 17:58

But i thought that splash horses had to have either all white face or at least one blue eye?
On the other hand i have dealt mostly with icelandics when it comes to colour things lol so...that might only apply to them...im no expert lol

ps: thanks for all the answers!

accphotography Wed, 07/07/2010 - 18:05

Haha. Icelandics are actually a prime example of minimal splash alot of the time. They supposedly don't have sabino and tobiano supposedly doesn't cause fact white and thus anything you see in that breed that isn't tobiano, should be splash. Splash can be as minimal at just a star or just a blue eye, etc.

PonyStar Wed, 07/07/2010 - 18:52

But that's what i mean, i think lol, blue eye indicates splash in icelandics, or anything white that isn't "skäck" but isn't "normal marking" (i guess overo is "skäck" in this situation since there is only suposedly, as you say, one type of "skäck" in icelandics)

BUT you are right, of course there are loads of splashies there, but no one knows they are! Because...if they don't give splash or there is a blue eye or something else like a spot on the tummy or you know..something else..then how can you tell difference between a normal white star and a splash star?

PS. forgot in previous to say also apart from white face or blue eye (or something splashy so to speak) that of course markings on the tummy or similar belongs in that category too.
But when it's just a for example white star o normal blaze....how would one know...tricky...

PPS: hmm also...on another OT, my boy has alot of TB blood, but i am no big brown person so i know nothing about pedigrees etc. but isn't there some cool unusual (for them) gene in some lines of TB's?
I know we have a stallion at stud in Sweden (Colour Your Dash, also the owner has a couple more, a mare alled Cuts 'n' Bruises) who is a lot of white on him.
Not that my boy is related to him though but i just thought of it and got curious in general of the TB lines and whatever it was...something white lol?

accphotography Wed, 07/07/2010 - 20:24

How to tell between a splash star and a sabino star? You don't. LOL! Unless there is something really unusual about it it's only a guess. Well, that is until they throw an obvious splash.

Thoroughbreds have dominant white, but I'm not sure if that's what you mean.