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Could he be smoky black?

greenlich October 25, 2009 February 22, 2011

Forums

Hi Everyone, I've just joined this forum as I find colour fascinating. We breed Connemara ponies in Australia. We have had the first 2 foals born to our stallion last month. Our stallion was born black/brown but went grey. He has not been colour tested. Both mares have been for the cream dilute gene, the black has no dilute gene but the grey has one. Both of the foals have blue eyes, I am pretty sure the grey mares foal (now 5 weeks old) is smoky black going grey (same as his dam) with dark blue eyes and am pretty sure the other one (now 3 1/2 weeks old) is black (same as his dam) but his eyes are still a light blue. Sire could have the cream dilute gene as he has a lot of untested greys inb his ancestry, we will be testing him soon. I have attached a few photos of the babies. This is the black mare's foal [attachment=2]forrest4.jpg[/attachment] [attachment=1]forrest5.jpg[/attachment] This is the foal of the grey mare [attachment=0]100_9803.jpg[/attachment] [attachment=0]100_9803.jpg[/attachment]

critterkeeper Sun, 10/25/2009 - 17:54

Welcome :newbie , I approved your post. We are enjoying a member explosion from downunder - and we :love it, the more the merrier.

What nice photos and adorable foals you have. I like very much. I agree the dark black foal is going grey -too bad as I love that shade of black with the white trim...

Your foal out of the mare that carries the cream gene can indeed be smokey black, but there isn't any sure way to know without testing or proof through progeny. He looks to be a normal black with splash to me, so that is probably where his blue eyes come from (cream doesn't cause blue eyes - it's believed that splash and frame are the 2 genes that cause blues), but they could also just be "baby blues" as we've come to call them and will darken as he matures.

Dilutes Sun, 10/25/2009 - 21:34

Lol, I like spreading the word.

Is this a particular member from the aussie E forum? I'm simigirl75 if that's the case.

Either way, WELCOME! A great knowledgable bunch here so I'm sure you'll fit in very easily.

I agree, I think the bottom bub is going grey. It would be lovely if he went steel grey for awhile (I love that shade of grey). Top bub likely would need to be tested. I have no idea if he is smokey or not. Both gorgeous, that I do know :D

:toast

CMhorses Sun, 10/25/2009 - 22:22

I am really not seeing either as being splash, the facial white is just not right for it.
Cream can often cause blue eyes in non double dilute foals.
As far as color goes I want to say they are both black,but then again smokey blacks can look the same as a black foal when they are young.

Fledgesflight Sun, 10/25/2009 - 23:22

1# Smokey Black
2# Black going Grey

Both single Cream dilutes and non Creams can be born with "baby" blue eyes.

greenlich Mon, 10/26/2009 - 00:59

Thanks Everyone for your welcomes and thoughts.
Yes Simi, I'm Firenne on E forum :)
#1 is the one who's dam has been tested and found to have no cream dilute gene. Sire hasn't been tested but is thought not to have any chance of cream dilute but we will be getting him tested soon. We were more wondering because of the blue eyes.
#2 I still think is smoky black going grey as his dam was (she has been tested positive for one Cream dilute gene), you can't see it in the photos but as he's got older he has taken on quite a smoky tinge to parts of his coat and does not look really black anymore. He has grey goggles so i know he will definitely go grey. don't think we'll get him tested unless someone wants to keep him as a stallion, although I am tempted just to see if i'm right.
The only problem is with our society we have to go through who they choose for colour testing which is a Qld University and it costs a fair bit more than if we went by the one in the US.

greenlich Mon, 10/26/2009 - 01:01

What age do foals eyes usually change colour? We've only had one other foal and she was a brown and eyes weren't blue (she was the black mares first foal).

rabbitsfizz Mon, 10/26/2009 - 10:59

I do not see blue eyes??
If the eyes on the black (not grey) foal are still dark blue, that can sometimes indicate cream, lurking under the black, but baby eyes are funny, and fade at their own pace, I find.
I see Splash, the only white my Splash mare has is the face marking, almost exactly the same as the colt, I agree it is not super typical but it is certainly not typical of Sabino, either!
Bit of a nuisance though, cream in Connies, isn't it?
Or does the Oz book accept dilutes?
The UK (well, Irish) book is still calling Buckskins "Dun" and refusing CrCr!!

greenlich Mon, 10/26/2009 - 14:34

Eyes are definitely blue on both, just not showing up on the pictures.
Australia accepts dilutes in Connies and are getting around to calling them buckskin rather than dun. some still don't get the whole colour thing. the Irish seem worse when it somes to colour which is what makes the whole thing so difficult.
Double dilutes are now accepted by all stud books but they can't go in Class 1, stud book is now separated into 3 classes as to whether inspected or not, colour and height.

critterkeeper Tue, 10/27/2009 - 20:41

Well I don't know that much about cream foals - yet, lol - as so far, I only have 1 on the ground (cremello stud), but her eyes were light, but not blue and have already darkened. Goldie was foaled on April 29th, making her 6 months this week.

greenlich Sat, 10/31/2009 - 04:48

Here are some recent pics, hopefully the size will make it ok for you to see the sheen the one going grey has. this is why I think he is smoky black going grey as his dam was.

greenlich Sat, 10/31/2009 - 05:04

more pics, this is the one from the grey mare, Dad can be seen in the background of some of the pics, he's a steely grey
[attachment=1]m2.jpg[/attachment]
[attachment=0]m1.jpg[/attachment]

greenlich Sat, 10/31/2009 - 05:08

More pics of the foal from the black dam, dam has been tested to have no cream dilute gene but dad not tested yet, but don't think he does, will test in a couple of months
[attachment=0]f1.jpg[/attachment]
[attachment=0]f3.jpg[/attachment]

thorwood Thu, 11/19/2009 - 14:06

Hey, good to see you here Firenne.
LOL, a few of us Aussies have been recruiting on an Aussie forum where colour discussions (often frustratingly uninformed :bounce ) are quite common.
I always send people here.

I reckon both of your bubs look black, but have to say, sometimes you just can't tell by looking, only a test will tell.

This is a smoky black foal from last year, & look how dark she is!!!! I know she is smoky black her dad is homozygous black & mum is cremello.[attachment=2]cilla 3.jpg[/attachment]

This is a black foal, no chance of cream, same dad as above & out of chestnut mare.
[attachment=1]DSC_5268 2.jpg[/attachment]

This is a heterozygous black foal, same dad as above, pretending to be smoky black. I had her tested because she looked soooooo NOT plain black, but she was.
[attachment=0]alice april 13 2006.jpg[/attachment]

greenlich Sat, 06/19/2010 - 05:12

Just thought I'd update on all our foals, now 9 months old.
Got Dad tested, no dilute cream gene so foal from black mare is black, looks very black now.
We have decided to run the one from the grey mare on as a future stallion prospect and got him tested for a number of things.
These are the results: E/e, a/a, N/G
So he is also black gone grey. Thrilled to see he is not homozygous grey as the majority of our mares are black or brown so will get some colour.