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Splash White Arabian

JNFerrigno April 09, 2011 April 09, 2011

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http://bonnaroostudios.deviantart.com/art/Gasp-a-person-152298434 http://bonnaroostudios.deviantart.com/art/So-Tired-152298786 http://bonnaroostudios.deviantart.com/art/Sweet-Dreams-152299141 http://bonnaroostudios.deviantart.com/art/Zoning-Out-152298257 http://bonnaroostudios.deviantart.com/art/Oh-Hi-152298971 http://www.ranchoevergreen.com/Iceman/

JNFerrigno Fri, 04/15/2011 - 22:51

Ah sorry. I meant that I thought the AHA (?) was investigating their farm about this one mare they had. A tobiano mare? I remember my friend in Arizona who breeds endy arabs mentioning something about it. So I wasn't sure if these horses would be pure or not. Conformationally that one is an eyesore, so you never no.

accphotography Fri, 04/15/2011 - 22:55

Oh yes. That horse got her papers pulled and I think some suspensions were handed out. I want to clarify though, they didn't breed the mare, they bought her.

JNFerrigno Fri, 04/15/2011 - 23:11

Ah ok. Sorry about that. It had been so long ago, and I didn't know all the details. I'm still trying to understand this whole splash/sabino/DW/other thing. I wrote a little article in an art gallery about blue eyes in horses and where they come from, and had my ass handed to me by some one who says they are a researcher. So now I'm digging around further to see if I missed anything.

Do arabs pop for Sb1 or no?

accphotography Fri, 04/15/2011 - 23:36

No I've never seen an Arabian test positive for SB1.

Don't worry about those "researchers". Unless they give you their credentials chances are they're just another one of us. We're "researchers" too. :D What exactly did they say was wrong?

accphotography Sat, 04/16/2011 - 00:03

I'm not saying whether I agree or disagree but these are the points I would guess she might take issue with:

1: "Frame causes full blues and splash partial blues." I too have read this so I know it's somewhat founded, but I think both genes can cause both expressions.

2: "But blue eyes are not determined by the placement of white on a horse." Not visually, no. However it is essentially proven that placement of unpigmented skin inside the horse is what causes blue eyes and deaf ears (at least in splash's case).

3: "The researchers who isolated the Tobiano gene say it does not cause blue eyes." Sadly this isn't true. The one researcher almost solely responsible for finding the tobiano inversion actually believes it DOES cause blue eyes (and blazes, and that there is often more face white on homozygous tobianos). I disagree with her however and think that she had some splash horses in her study group, but we'll see someday.

That's all I see that is even remotely questionable. In fact I think it's a FABULOUS article (with AWESOME photos)!

JNFerrigno Sat, 04/16/2011 - 07:26

Yeah I should have clairified #2. I just meant for instance, just because your horse has a blaze, doesn't mean he will have blue eyes from that blaze (if we are not looking at it genetically. Mor artistically).

This article was written for the a Horse Art RPG on deviant art, and many of us try to use real life genetics, or what we know of them. But there have been a lot of blue eyed horses popping up, and when they give thier color and genetic expression, they don't include white patterns. So this, and finding blue eyed Akhal Tekes and PRES (which I 'breed' on there) made me want to type out an article for them.

The tobiano line I pulled from a post on this form when trying to read back dated articles to see if I missed anything. I should have asked for further clarification on that. And not just assumed.

I think she felt that I was spreading untruths, which wasn't my intention. But I do think the people that red it, got the general concept. And really thats all they needed. Some of these artists really try to delve into genetics and learn, and others really are not going to go any further then drawing it in their art work. But if their path to learning about genetics is anything like mine, they will come across disproven, or out dated information most of the time. I mean I've been doing this for 11 years now. All on my own. And I think I only found this forum not even a year ago.

Monsterpony Sat, 04/16/2011 - 14:07

I agree with ACC on the tobiano thing. I actually am leaning now towards saying that frame doesn't cause blue, but that splash is present in the frames with blue eyes. Splash definitely does cause full blue eyes as is evidenced by blue eyed horses that test negative for frame.

accphotography Sat, 04/16/2011 - 15:25

And I know for 100% certain that splash causes partials too.

I too have toyed with the idea that frame doesn't cause blue eyes. MP do you know if ALL lethal whites foals have had blue eyes? I think no.

Oh no JN, don't get me wrong, I think it's fantastic. I was just saying those are the ONLY things I could see her taking argument with. Also the tobiano information that I stated is NOT commonly known so I wouldn't have expected you to know that. I only know it as the researcher that found the inversion talked to me in person about it. Most people still believe they say no face white and no blue eyes, but that's not what SHE says anyway. I still don't trust it until we have a splash test.

Monsterpony Sat, 04/16/2011 - 15:30

I'll have to do some digging on LWOS foals. I've only ever seen/heard of them having blue eyes, but the fact that they rarely have pigment at all and that EDNRB has so an affect on so much more than pigment, I wonder if it can affect eyes in homozygous form. Now you have me pondering...

accphotography Sat, 04/16/2011 - 16:16

Well I know some DO have pigment. I watched one be put down this year that had a small mustache on each corner of the mouth and a black coronet. I didn't ask about his eyes though but I swear I've heard of them having dark eyes before.

JNFerrigno Sat, 04/16/2011 - 17:35

I don't remember about the eyes, it's been so long. But I do know we had a foal here in West Palm which I had photos of that had what looked like a black dog paw print on his but.

Threnody Sun, 04/17/2011 - 15:37

I'm of the thought that tobiano doesn't cause face markings. Especially considering how hard it tries to prevent them from forming when other patterns are present.

I'm with ACC on the researcher likely seeing the effects of splash in the tested and observed populations But again, can't tell until tests are developed. I also think situations like this is why it's so hard to isolate traits like Flaxen because Pangare can be part of the studied populations as well skewing results of observable colors and inheritance.

Personally not sure about frame not causing blue eyes. If a gene tested LWO with dark eyes is found I would rethink it. But I believe that the W12 foal who died 5 weeks after birth showed that random dominant white mutations [i]may [/i]have the possibility of mimicking LWO foals if their particular mutation is dominant lethal.