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Splash and basic query again.

lillith April 21, 2010 February 22, 2011

Forums

[quote][color=#FF0000]Yes I think that the splash is very closely related to what was traditionally called classic sabino markings, there is a welsh breeder that knows how to produce a splash from these classic sabinos but will not tell anyone!! Which is a real shame as it would give us a much better idea of the relationship between the two and what causes markings to crop out to body patterns. [/color]It was proposed at one point that all splashes were deaf, but I have been told that this is not the case, I suppose this has come from extreme whites in other species, notably dogs are born deaf. [/quote] I saw this on the H&H forum, any ideas? [quote] A dominanat gene requires only one copy to express, eg. the bay Agouti gene (Aa/AA) and the black colouring (Ee/EE). A recessive gene requires 2 copys to express eg. the chestnut colouring (ee) A codominant will express one thing when homozygous for one allele, another when homozygous for the other and a mix of the two when heterozygous. e.g. roan in cows I believe, or pink pea flowers, (I don't know the usual reperesentitive letters so I am using x) XX - red, xx - white Xx - pink/roan An Incomplete Dominant expresses fully when Homozygous and half(ish) when heterozygous, e.g. Cream - (Crcr = palomino, CrCr = cremello) This dominance only applies within a locus, e.g. the Agouti locus or the Extension Locus, it cannot be said to apply between loci, Agouti is not dominant to black and recessive to red, it simply does what it does to both of them. Dominant White is not dominant to black or red, it simply prevents the pigment being produced and would do so whatever the base colour. [/quote] And posted this, I was certain when I posted it but the certainty of some of the other posters has shaken my conviction, am I right?

Morgan Wed, 04/21/2010 - 08:40

It's only "closely related" in so much as it mimics and works with sabino. I dont think it's possible to take a completely non splash sabinos and breed splash out of it without mutation. It's just that we have no way of knowing if a sabino does NOT have splash as well yet. They are very distinct when separate so Splash is one that I would not put in the Sabino basket. That's only done by people who believe Sabino can cause blue eyes.IMO if they are have blue eyes and are neg LWO (and, obviously, not DD or dominant white) they are [i]by definition [/i]Splash, until we get a test. If you have loud Sabinos its very very easy to have more minimal splash hiding, take a bloodline with minimal splash and breed it enough times and you'll likely get a loud one.

RiddleMeThis Wed, 04/21/2010 - 09:41

Her name is Lucy correct Lillith?

ACC and I have had a few dealings with her, and her basic opinion on splash is that it is AT LEAST a bald face and four high whites, and if it has NOT come from four high whites and a bald face, sabino has mutated into splash. (And I believe if one of those loud splashes has solid offspring it has mutated AGAIN back to nothing or back to sabino.)

She IMO is so wrong, I cannot even fathom it, and sadly she is a moderator/admin on one of the forums we were on and you very quickly get banned if you choose to disagree with her assessments of splash white.

As for the Welsh breeder, I am going out on a very strong limb and saying she's talking about The Promise Welsh, and in that there is nothing to tell her that she would believe. The horses are NOT sabino, and are really splash. He is breeding minimal to minimal and getting maximal. Its just the way it works, and if she did not have her head so far up a certain orifice, she would understand that by now.

rabbitsfizz Wed, 04/21/2010 - 11:08

I have had, one way and another, a lot of dealings with Welsh in my life and I can say, in hindsight as I did not even question it at the time, that I have never met a Welsh that did not have Splash [i]and[/i] Sabino.
Even the ones that looked Sabino only often had Splash lurking, which came out in subsequent generations.
Now, this is not to say that it is not possible to have a Welsh with one pattern only, but since there is no test for Splash, and no credible test for Sabino, I am going with the "experience over theory" line here, and saying that the two patterns are irredeemably (is that even the right word? :sign ) mixed.
I am still trying to get my head around the possibility of spontaneous eruption of a pattern, so the idea of one pattern "mutating" into another is just too far "out there" to even be considered.
A pattern spontaneously occurring is one thing, after all they all had to start somewhere and come from somewhere, but on the basis of KISS it is just plain daft to suggest that they mutate into one another!
Next we'll have Frame as a lethal mutation of Splash....well. Splash, Frame and Sabino are all "overo"....so, Americans, it's all [i]your[/i] fault :rofl

Sara Wed, 04/21/2010 - 13:21

Most of the Welsh breeders have very little understanding of genetics so they're pretty much flying blind as far as the patterns go. I explain constantly how the same animal can have both splash and sabino, how they hide in one another, and don't make much headway. I have just recently started receiving the Welsh Yahoo group emails again since I have some ponies for sale and am marketing them there. My old function there was pretty much looking at photos and saying, "yep, both patterns" next photo: "yep, both patterns" and that's what I'm doing again.

They have heard that sabino has jagged edges and that splash causes blue eyes and then when they have a foal with BOTH they are STUMPED.

lillith Wed, 04/21/2010 - 14:31

Thanks, I spend enough time stressing about people being WRONG on the INTERNET without getting things wrong myself. :D

I guessed the spontaneous sabino-splash mutation was off but I wanted you guys thoughts on it.

horsegen Wed, 04/21/2010 - 15:42

Two years ago, when I gave a lecture on coat color genetics to the WPCAC, they were confused as to how a pony could be both buckskin AND dun...so it's not just patterns! I have to say though, they all caught on fast! I was their keynote speaker again this year, and I still had people coming up and asking me coat color questions from the year before (even though that's not what I was talking about this year) and they had really picked up a lot. :)

Songcatcher Mon, 04/26/2010 - 20:03

[quote="Sara"]
They have heard that sabino has jagged edges and that splash causes blue eyes and then when they have a foal with BOTH they are STUMPED.[/quote]
There are so many people that just cannot grasp that having one pattern does not prevent them from having another as well. Why is that so difficult for some to understand. As Forrest would say,
I'm not a very smart man", but I can understand that.