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are these the same color?

what brought me to this forum is that there has been a debate on some color genetics in some dogs.

this puppy is aw/at, her mom is aw/at her father is aw/aw (no KB)

the discussion is this, is it possible that this other dog is genetically the same? She has not been color coat tested but below is a picture of her, her son, followed by a picture of her mom and dad.  Additionally, this females dam had been mated to other dogs  (probably aw/aw or aw/at) and had never thrown another pup like it, in fact this pup was the only one (of a small litter of 2) who looked like this,



her son

her mom

and her father




edit: I noticed similar topics on this forum……



Daylene Alford Wed, 07/09/2014 - 10:38

It's possible.  I think she is definitely aw.  I'm not exactly sure I'm understanding everything your asking.   Where you wondering if she could KB because of the very dark pup? 

newbie13 Wed, 07/09/2014 - 12:28

sorry about the confusion, yes I am asking if you think she is KB. I think she is KB/ky or KB/KB and aw/at or aw/aw because of her liver dad and dark pup.

Daylene Alford Wed, 07/09/2014 - 17:10

I would love to see test results on her.  My first impression is that no she isn't KB however,  I have seen those that surprised me before.  What did the pups sire look like?  

newbie13 Thu, 07/10/2014 - 13:39

In reply to by Daylene Alford

interesting! may I ask why you're leaning on the side of no KB?

here is a picture of the sire to the pups (the black one shown in the first post)


here is a picture of the litter when it was first born

Daylene Alford Thu, 07/10/2014 - 20:55

Just the overall shade of her coat.   Her son does make things interesting doesn't he?  The only thing about her that in my mind might indicate dominant black is those interesting "goggles".  They were present on several of the other dogs that have tested positive for dominant black.  

You plan to test her and let me know the results?  If she's positive I would love to do an article on her and her offspring. 

newbie13 Fri, 07/11/2014 - 00:06

In reply to by Daylene Alford

I would love nothing more than if her coat was color tested, unfortunately her owners aren't too keen on it :( but if it ever happens I will zoom here right away! Thanks so much for your input, it is quite the puzzle isn't it?

Daylene Alford Fri, 07/11/2014 - 13:52

If she was KB her sire would be the likely culprit as he seems to have something else going on perhaps Brown (Liver)?  Do you have access to any of his other offspring?  

EDIT:  I was looking back over the photos and the photo of the puppies is very interesting.  Generally, puppies are born lighter, even those who will eventually darken.  The fact that those puppies are black could be an indicator of dominant black.  

It is a shame the won't allow color testing.  I guess KB isn't a desired color?  What breed are these dogs?

Daylene Alford Sun, 07/13/2014 - 11:38

I thought you might find this interesting.  Apparently there is an allele at Extension (Eh) in cocker spaniels that interrupts Dominant Black.  

Dogs that are Ehe KBky are not black as would be expected but can be very light colored.