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DARK SKINNED cremello?!

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kolorkonfused
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DARK SKINNED cremello?!
HI! Im new here...... and while my name might be kolorkonfused, I find myself pretty savvy on most color genetics... but this one has me stumped. the owners say he is Cremello, he has the potential to be one! but he has dark skin... but... blue eyes? the say he is tested, and carries two creme genes, so... WHAT GIVES!? http://www.2bcuttinghorses.com/untitled2.html to me he just looks like a light colored palomino, and is quite dark on his legs, and the fact he has dark skin under his hair is questioning as well....
Daylene Alford
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I think they will be very

I think they will be very surprised when his first foal crop produces a alot of sorrels and bays. I bet what happened is he tested positive for cream and the owners are confused by what exactly that means. Either that or the lab made a mistake. It happens occasionally.

He is a palomino with splash. With splash causing a white marking that makes the skin on the nose pink and also causes the blue eyes.

Monsterpony
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I agree with the above. I

I agree with the above. I don't see any posted results of DNA testing and he looks very palomino to me.

.

LesliKathman
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Cremellos that are kept

Cremellos that are kept outside can develop freckling that will eventually darken the skin. Back before there was a test, that caused difficulty from time to time because they would often get misidentified as champagnes.

It's an older document (2003) so at that point the Pearl dilution was as yet unidentified, but her observations are all sound. (The author, Carolyn Shepard, was instrumental in the discovery of Pearl.)

Champagne Delusions: Champagne Look-Alike Dilutions

Daylene Alford
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Quote:Cremellos that are kept

Cremellos that are kept outside can develop freckling that will eventually darken the skin. Back before there was a test, that caused difficulty from time to time because they would often get misidentified as champagnes.

Yes, but in that is not what is happening in this case. You can clearly see the fully pigmented skin (ie not mottled or freckled) around the eyes.

kolorkonfused
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they swear up and down that

they swear up and down that this horse is double creme that he was tested..... by his last owners.

Daylene Alford
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Quote:they swear up and down

they swear up and down that this horse is double creme that he was tested..... by his last owners.

:rofl :rofl

JNFerrigno
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Not to mention the richer leg

Not to mention the richer leg point color. But am I seeing cream freckles or what, because that looks like motteling in one of the photos. Could they have miss read the genetic results? The owners that is.

Daylene Alford
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http://www.2bcuttinghorses.co

http://www.2bcuttinghorses.com/halolefth... In this photo?

I'm pretty sure what your seeing is the result of his white marking. If you look at the photo of his head from the other side you can clearly see a jagged separation between the white blaze and the dark skin. Again there is no pink skin or even freckling around the eye.

Compare the area around the eye with this photo

IMAGE(http://equine.colorgenetics.info/equine_gallery/d/3275-2/Akhal+Teke+Cream.jpg?g2_GALLERYSID=df3a5959c2a62959ca43be2e50d4ffe4)

Threnody
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^ Yah I agree. They've got

^ Yah I agree. They've got an isabella palomino with pinto blues. He could also have roan making him look lighter since that's in his direct pedigree as well.

LesliKathman
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admin wrote: Yes, but in that

Yes, but in that is not what is happening in this case.

With all due respect, we don't know what is happening in this case. There are a few options:

1) The owner is mistaken about the test results
2) The owner is lying about the test results
3) There was an error in the tests
4) The horse is an unusually dark (ie., tanned) presentation of cremello
5) The horse carries something that is altering cream

Without more information, we don't know which it is. I don't like to assume horses that don't fit the profile for their color are what the owner claims, but I also don't readily assume people are lying or stupid. The horse is being advertised at stud and apparently is well-enough known among the cutting horse community that finding references to him online was no problem. Claiming he is tested and guaranteeing the color when he wasn't would be foolish in the extreme. And maybe that is what happened. But it is not proven.

Has anyone called the owner? Or the previous owner? It seems that would be the first step towards resolving the question. I sure would not say I knew what was going on (or not going on) before doing that. People deserve that much respect, even if you are convinced you are smarter than them.

Horses that do not look like they should are opportunities to learn - if you don't assume you have nothing left to learn. There is already one cremello with dark skin and amber/green eyes out there, and despite the fact that people were just sure the horse could not be what was claimed, he's a popular sire with a statistically significant number of foals - all cream. Would I have said that was possible? No. But there he is, breeding just like what he was claimed to be.

The longer you do this, the more you realize how much we don't know.

And with that I am signing off. I wish you all well, but I suspect we have a fundamentally different set of motivations when it comes to the subject matter being discussed.

TheSwingHorse
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So he only had one foal so

So he only had one foal so far and it died? Wonder what color it was..

http://www.2bcuttinghorses.com/expected2...

Also, Lesli, I'd really like to see this stallion you are referring to.

IMAGE(http://i666.photobucket.com/albums/vv28/hoodsey_stock/Pecunia-%20Grey%20Andalusian%20Mare/DSC_0059-1.jpg)

TheSwingHorse
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Ok, did some digging. Here is

Ok, did some digging.

Here is his stallion report from AQHA.

One cremello out of a buckskin mare.
One "black" filly and from what I can see, the dam is black.

Hopefully this works.
http://www.aqhamembers.com/IFS/322526707...

If not, here is the cremello (AOC PLATINUMBOONSMAL): http://www.northernhorse.com/bullockqh/?...

And the black filly (DOC OLENAS SERAPHIM):
http://calgary.kijiji.ca/c-pets-livestoc...
I messaged the owner to see if the filly has been color tested or not..

Here is her dam's pedigree:
http://www.allbreedpedigree.com/black+mi...

Now, if she is smokey black, thats another thing but if not, there goes that...

But proving anything from those two foals seems to be difficult because so far all the dams very well could be cream as well (the buckskin, the palomino on their site and the "black" mare may be smokey black). I'd be really interested in seeing his genetic testing. Another thing people get confused about, is when you register a stallion, you have to have it "Genetic Typed" and some people think this includes color, which it does not.

I'd really love to know what color the foal was that died but they did not say..

IMAGE(http://i666.photobucket.com/albums/vv28/hoodsey_stock/Pecunia-%20Grey%20Andalusian%20Mare/DSC_0059-1.jpg)

Daylene Alford
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Quote:With all due respect,

With all due respect, we don't know what is happening in this case.

Well your right we don't KNOW. I'm going by my experience of, after seeing many double creams, never having seen a dark skinned one. It is generally excepted scientific practice that the easiest explanation is generally the correct one, and the easiest explanation is that someone made a mistake. Which, if you notice, is what I stated in my first post. I'm not going to start assuming dark skinned double creams exist without alot more evidence (ie test results). If you have evidence of such a dark skinned double cream I would love to see it.

At this point it just seems to me you have gotten very upset just because I didn't agree with you.

Third Peppermint
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I looked at more pictures of

I looked at more pictures of this guy on his facebook page and whatnot and he looks REALLY palomino in some. His eyes are really pinto-blue and nout double-dilute blue either... I'm suspicious that the test results got messed up, too.

Third Peppermint
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TheSwingHorse wrote:Ok, did

Ok, did some digging.
I'd really love to know what color the foal was that died but they did not say..

On their facebook page they had pictures ( :sad ) where she looks cremello (they said she tested cremello). She had bluuuuuue eyes, pink skin, and four white feet and a big fat blaze. However, cremello is possible even if the sire is palomino.

They also had another palomino appaloosa foal of his on their. I can't tell the dam's color, though. I'd guess dark palomino or chestnut?

LesliKathman
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I am not upset, and since I

I am not upset, and since I have no opinion on the horse there isn't any agree or disagree to be upset about.

But you have a habit of making declarative sentences about things that are not definitive. It is, I suspect, why this forum has a reputation for being home to a bunch of know-it-alls. I've pointed it out now several times, assuming that you do not want to miscommunicate your views. But I see that you really don't see a problem with careless statements that imply certainty that is not there.

And posting "rolling on the floor" smileys in response to a statement that disagrees with YOUR opinion just makes you look small. Maybe the owners are mistaken, and maybe he isn't carrying the genes they think he is. But that kind of reaction puts your community in a bad light. It reinforces exactly the kind of impression that caused others to give warnings about spending time here.

As I said, our approaches are incompatible. No hard feelings on this end, but I am going to bow out.

Oh, and as for darker skin on cremellos... google will work fine. The case I mentioned earlier is well-known and has been much discussed in the past. Look and you will find it.

lipigirl
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That looks like a light

That looks like a light palamino who has a white patch on muzzle - the blue eyes are prob a white pattern not DD IMO.

TheSwingHorse
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LesliKathman wrote:Oh, and as

Oh, and as for darker skin on cremellos... google will work fine. The case I mentioned earlier is well-known and has been much discussed in the past. Look and you will find it.

What do I google? Dark skinned cremello? Why am I being sent on a hunt? Is it that you don't know the name or now you're just being bitter. I was on lunch earlier when I posted the AQHA info but I don't have much time in my day to sit and dig when I just asked a simple question. I'm not asking for a genetic breakdown on him just a name...

IMAGE(http://i666.photobucket.com/albums/vv28/hoodsey_stock/Pecunia-%20Grey%20Andalusian%20Mare/DSC_0059-1.jpg)

Daylene Alford
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I apologize. I was out of

I apologize. I was out of line in laughing at what is probably a misfortune understanding on the part of the current owners. Thank you for pointing that out.

But you have a habit of making declarative sentences about things that are not definitive.

If I have ever come across that way in the past it has not been my intention or desire. Everything I state is meant to be taken as my opinion only. I often don't even state my opinion on color issues but let the other members take the lead. Many of them known more than I do anyway.

If the forum has a reputation for being a bunch of know-it-all why did you join? We do sometimes get into heated discussions but myself and the forum moderators always try to promote an environment of learning. If we sometimes disagree on something that is to expected and should be taken with a grain of salt.

JNFerrigno
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Yeah Admin, that was the

Yeah Admin, that was the photo. His dark skin on the muzzle looked mottled on my screen, but I wasn't sure if that was from the creme or not.

I think she joined admin because Lesli was the one to jump down my throat when I made an article on blue eyes in horses online http://news.deviantart.com/article/148205/ Giving me the impression she actually was a researcher, and not just a hobbyist.

I doubt she'll give you the photo Swing, as last time I asked her about documents to prove her point I to was sent on a wild goose chase. The only thing I have found on creams and dark skins, was when cream foals were born and it then became a waiting game to see if their skin darkened and they showed themselves to be palomino, or stayed light. In the case where they didn't really do either, they were later understood to be pearls.

And I think it's best you do bow out Lesli, and I'm sorry that I ever gave you this link. I think if you were able to control your know-it-all tongue you'd find the people here are pretty great. I had a rough start with them at first, but I really enjoy hearing what they have to say. I respect their mixed opinions, and see them for what they are worth. However if this is how you want to present yourself, might as well stick to your blog were the average person who reads it has no clue about color, and takes your distortions as facts.

The ROFL comment Admin made, wasn't even directed to you. If anything it shows we have a sense of humor here on the form as the current owners were obviously not the ones to have tested him. I can sell you a solid horse right now and swear up and down to you that he's an appaloosa, and with out the papers, who'd know. He could be a solid app. He could just be another grad stock horse.

And to the group, I'm sorry if this gets me in to trouble, it really gets to me when someone comes into a community blasting away as if they are somebody, and we are something below them. Then has the nerve to speak about the group in such a lack of education.

JNFerrigno
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LesliKathman wrote:There is

There is already one cremello with dark skin and amber/green eyes out there, and despite the fact that people were just sure the horse could not be what was claimed, he's a popular sire with a statistically significant number of foals - all cream. Would I have said that was possible? No. But there he is, breeding just like what he was claimed to be.

Sunshine? http://newdilutions.com/other/sunshine.htm Since you refuse to give proper information to any questions which ask you to further explain, this is the only horse I can think of, seeing as Ropers Nova is gelded. Neither have dark skin.

TheSwingHorse
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Well in that case! My

Well in that case! My palomino roan is also a champagne because he was freckles! And well... I said so. But don't ask me for the tests...

IMAGE(http://i666.photobucket.com/albums/vv28/hoodsey_stock/Pecunia-%20Grey%20Andalusian%20Mare/DSC_0059-1.jpg)

Daylene Alford
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Thank you JNFerrigno, I

Thank you JNFerrigno, I appreciate your taking up for myself personally and also the forum.

kolorkonfused, I'm sorry your thread got mixed up in this and hope you decide to hang around.

TheSwingHorse
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Funny how she mentions

Funny how she mentions Occam's Razor in her comment on DA yet ignores it in this case. lol

IMAGE(http://i666.photobucket.com/albums/vv28/hoodsey_stock/Pecunia-%20Grey%20Andalusian%20Mare/DSC_0059-1.jpg)

RiddleMeThis
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I sooo wish this forum had a

I sooo wish this forum had a "Like" button!

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Daylene Alford
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I can do that...Do you want

I can do that...Do you want the +1 from google or facebook?

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I would prefer facebook, but

I would prefer facebook, but either is fine.

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JNFerrigno
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TheSwingHorse wrote:Funny how

Funny how she mentions Occam's Razor in her comment on DA yet ignores it in this case. lol

I've met people like her before. It's their attempt to assert rank in a way. Talking like a robot. Forgetting that there are people here with actual degrees and experience. Hiding behind copyrights as a way to have others take her word as fact. Being vague. Selectively using information to try and prove her point. If she had any respect for science, she'd know not to do that. Sadly first impressions do count, and after the DA run in, I knew this was going to happen. And after talking to her more on DA I knew exactly who she was and where she came from. Go to one Breyerfest, or join one model horse form, and you'll find 5 dozen more just like that.

TheRedHayflinger
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darkest skinned (and he has

darkest skinned (and he has greenish eyes too) double creme I can think of is a morgan.. Amberfields Desperado. But they only mention the skin around his eyes being darkened
http://www.morgancolors.com/AmberfieldsD...

pic found here: http://www.morgancolors.com/doubledilute...

dakotakdq
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he looks pally to me...there

he looks pally to me...there is a bucky in Oz that the owners swear (and reg) as a perlino but she has the darker skin too but 2 blues eyes.

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