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Crossover Question

rubberduckyyy September 15, 2011 September 15, 2011

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At the school I went to we had a black paint, named Diamond. Our barn manager told us she was a tobiano. She was bred to a tovero. When the foal was born it was a LWO. She was obviously never bred to the tovero stud again, but our professor said that Diamond (the tobiano) was a "prime example of crossover", because she was a tobiano but was carrying the LWO gene. Is that possible?

JNFerrigno Thu, 09/22/2011 - 12:31

I've heard some pony breeders say that they can see silver in chestnuts when the chestnut is sooty. I've seen images where they insist they can see it in their horse. And I chock it up to chestnut manes and tails being multi colored any way. Maybe some have more lighter hairs in the mixture then others.

rabbitsfizz Thu, 09/22/2011 - 14:46

The picture of a Silver Chestnut in BN's book was, if I remember correctly, a Silver Bay.
And then we wonder why we have such a HUGE problem in Minis (especially, I think because of all the mixtures of colours and the total lack of prejudice against any mix whatsoever) when it comes to registering colour correctly.
And then to cap it all you get the society telling people they have to register Silver Buckskin as, I think it was, Silver Black (or "dapple" as they call it) because Silver Buckskin was not on the computer!
As I pointed out at the time, inciting an ordinary member of a registered society to commit fraud,knowingly, is a felony where I come form! (Remember these registered papers are used as a legal document as proof of ownership...)

Threnody Thu, 09/22/2011 - 17:15

Considering that sooty isn't immune to being diluted I do believe sooty chestnuts show more signs of silver than plain red chestnuts. There are a few in the Morgan breed like that.

Monsterpony Thu, 09/22/2011 - 19:34

Has it even been verified that sooty in chestnuts is, in fact, eumelanin rather than highly concentrated pheomelanin? I could understand sooty chestnuts exhibiting silver if they are actually pigmented with eumelanin.

Threnody Thu, 09/22/2011 - 21:08

I thought they looked more muted than normal, in retrospect Buck looks bodyclipped. I need to hunt one down in real life and get a black sooty hair under a microscope.

Considering that we don't see undiluted sooty on champagnes and double cream I don't see why sooty on a chestnut would be an exception.

Daylene Alford Thu, 09/22/2011 - 21:11

[quote]Considering that we don't see undiluted sooty on champagnes and double cream I don't see why sooty on a chestnut would be an exception.[/quote]

I'm afraid you lost me could you explain a bit?

JNFerrigno Thu, 09/22/2011 - 23:32

That first mini, looks like a liver chestnut to me. Such a consistent shade through it's coat I don't know if I would chock that up to sooty or just a darker shade.

Little Kings Buck Commander however looks like he was just clipped, and that could have dulled him. Or he just has a dull coat.

The last one, something is going on with his booty. But yeah, he just has a dull coat.

Threnody Fri, 09/23/2011 - 00:24

Since champagne and double cream dilute [u]both [/u]red and black pigment it causes sooty to also be diluted. We don't see sooty on these dilutions the way we would see it on a single cream because single cream mostly dilutes red. This is why we can see such dramatic effects of sooty on palominos since the black from the sooty is mostly unaffected.

Silver is another dilution that dilutes black pigment, so it's logical to assume that it would also dilute black caused by sooty on a chestnut. I'm now thinking that it may be too subtle to visually verify. Hence why I would love to track down a sooty silver chestnut and see a sooty hair under the microscope.

As far as my examples I guess I was seeing something that wasn't there. Won't be the first or last time, so thanks for pointing it out you guys.

Hope that explained things!

rabbitsfizz Fri, 09/23/2011 - 12:38

Commander, who I love, will have Roan, which, combined with Sooty over a pale Chestnut, could give that colour.
This is assuming he has been colour tested as Sorrel, and not just guessed at- The LK ranch do get an awful lot of their colours really wrong!
I always assumed Commander was Smoky Silver Black + Roan