Can Roan Turn Manes Silver?

Yep, it often does put "greyish" or "silver" hairs in the mane and tail.

Yes.

Next question :rofl

Well that was simple! Haha.

Okay, what causes chestnut horses to sometimes have really light legs or weird greyish-dark legs?

IMO pangare' in the first case and sooty in the latter.

[quote="accphotography"]IMO pangare' in the first case and sooty in the latter.[/quote]

That made the most sense to me... Thanks for making me feel like a bit observant and not just pulling ideas out of thin air.

We love questions and debates - it's why we are here - ask away !!

I agree with all above BTW !

[quote="lipigirl"]We love questions and debates - it's why we are here - ask away !!

I agree with all above BTW ![/quote]

Ditto :bounce :toast

[quote="accphotography"]IMO pangare' in the first case [/quote]
or Flaxen.

You believe flaxen will make the lower legs light?

I was looking at a show for Comtois horses in France from 2007 and they're pretty much ALL flaxen chestnut. I've looked at almost all of the horse and I don't see a plain old chestnut anywhere. There are a few bays, but 94% flaxen chestnut. All of these chestnuts have light colored legs, too.

Here's a link to the pictures if anyone is curious: http://www.chevaux-de-trait.eu/chevaux/…" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

I think it's neat to see sooty starting at the knees and creeping down the legs, then starting to go up the rest of the body.

Here's a progression I made:
http://www.chevaux-de-trait.eu/chevaux/…" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
http://www.chevaux-de-trait.eu/chevaux/…" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
http://www.chevaux-de-trait.eu/chevaux/…" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
http://www.chevaux-de-trait.eu/chevaux/…" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
http://www.chevaux-de-trait.eu/chevaux/…" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
http://www.chevaux-de-trait.eu/chevaux/…" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
http://www.chevaux-de-trait.eu/chevaux/…" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
http://www.chevaux-de-trait.eu/chevaux/…" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
http://www.chevaux-de-trait.eu/chevaux/…" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
http://www.chevaux-de-trait.eu/chevaux/…" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
http://www.chevaux-de-trait.eu/chevaux/…" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

They still all have a little lightness on the legs, too. I don't see any that scream out pangare, but some do have light tummies.

That ain't sooty. LOL! Those are bay silvers and the last is a black silver.

As for the flaxen causing the lighter legs, those horses also have pangare'. I'm sure we've seen flaxen without lighter legs?

Oh I wanted to add... Judging by your synopsis of their color I would be willing to say 90%+ of the Comtois are homozygous for silver and agouti. That would mean that there would be very few plain bays or blacks and alot of chestnut and chestnut look-alikes (bay silvers).

Just for some back up, these are Comtois. The first one is VERY apparent IMO.
http://www.boblangrish.com/images/galle…" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

This one is very apparent too IMO.
http://www.boblangrish.com/images/galle…" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

There definitely are chestnut, but the majority of horses I'm finding are silver.

Given that most references I've found say they are predominately flaxen chestnut (and some say "very dark chestnuts with dark legs") with only the occasional bay, I'm assuming they are thinking all of the silvers are actually chestnut.

I wish I could read this site, they're using a bay silver as an example and I'd love to know what they are saying about the colors.
http://www.horsesman.de/html/comtois_pf…" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Comtois are definitely mostly silver. I've also seen a comtois X percheron on a rescue site that was definite clear black silver dapple, it wasn't going grey.

[quote="accphotography"]
I wish I could read this site, they're using a bay silver as an example and I'd love to know what they are saying about the colors.
[/quote]

They're calling them chestnut/brown. Fuchs means chestnut when referring to a horse (means fox otherwise). They also mention that the mane is light colored. That's all they say about color.

So would this explain how the breed went from all bay before WWII to being all "flaxen chestnut" in modern days? They attributed this color change to one stallion named Quaestor, that was that lighter coloration, who happened to be very popular.

I've always thought flaxen hit the points as well.

[quote="accphotography"]You believe flaxen will make the lower legs light?[/quote]
I believe it can, yes.

[quote="Third Peppermint"]So would this explain how the breed went from all bay before WWII to being all "flaxen chestnut" in modern days? They attributed this color change to one stallion named Quaestor, that was that lighter coloration, who happened to be very popular.[/quote]

Bingo, I bet he was a very light bay silver. I'd also bet he may have been homozygous silver.

[quote="accphotography"]I'd also bet he may have been homozygous silver.[/quote]

I guess he could have been a product of careful/ selective color breeding. It's just weird that they'd come up with a homozygous silver in a breed that was almost entirely bay.

I'm also still a little suspicious of their light legs. I went and looked through some Auxois information that I had. Originally, the Auxois is Ardennais x Burgundian (German, same as Comtois). Later, Percheron and Boulonnais were added. Comtois blood was used int he Auxois breed to help with inbreeding problems, quite recently. The French attributed the reappearance of the chestnut color to this addition on Comtois.

The other thing that's very interesting to me is how the Auxois breed has a LOT of mealy. Even I can see mealy bays in there. None of the mealy bays have light legs lower than the fetlock.

http://www.chevaux-de-trait.eu/chevaux/…" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false; - mealy bay
http://www.chevaux-de-trait.eu/chevaux/…" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false; - mealy bay
http://www.chevaux-de-trait.eu/chevaux/…" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false; - mealy bay
http://www.chevaux-de-trait.eu/chevaux/…" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false; - mealy bay?

http://www.chevaux-de-trait.eu/chevaux/…" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false; - mealy chestnut?
http://www.chevaux-de-trait.eu/chevaux/…" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false; - flaxen chestnut (with cool belly spot for your enjoyment)
http://www.chevaux-de-trait.eu/chevaux/…" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false; - flaxen chestnut

http://www.chevaux-de-trait.eu/chevaux/…" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false; - sooty/ mealy bay that I thought looked neat

http://www.chevaux-de-trait.eu/chevaux/…" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false; - very interesting foal...

http://www.chevaux-de-trait.eu/chevaux/…" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false; - this guy has the dark legs, I think
http://www.chevaux-de-trait.eu/chevaux/…" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false; - also dark legs maybe

Okay, I'm done posting picture links (for now).

I guess my overall question is: If Comtois are bay silver, why are their legs light without there being more obvious pangare?

That's what silver does to feathers IME. Look at the silver in Gypsies, many of them are very light legged. Even in silvers without feathers sometimes the legs are very light.

It does seem like it would be odd for that stallion to be homozygous, but to go from almost all bays to almost all silvers so quick... it would have been tough with a heterozygous. He may have even been a chestnut himself (carrying silver). Was he part of the breed or an outcross?

Whilst, in this case, a few of those horses do look as if they could be Silver, I have to point out that this sort of colouring exists, without Silver, in Welsh Cobs!!
But not in nearly as high numbers, that alone would make me think something "strange" was going on.....

This exists in Welsh without silver?

http://www.chevaux-de-trait.eu/chevaux/…" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

[quote="Third Peppermint"] If Comtois are bay silver, why are their legs light without there being more obvious pangare?[/quote]
Because its not pangare causing the legs to be light. Its silver.

[quote]This exists in Welsh without silver?

http://www.chevaux-de-trait.eu/chevaux/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false; ... ex.266.jpg[/quote]

Not to that extreme but the redder dark with flaxen in a previous post, yes.

[url]http://www.freewebs.com/stonefieldswels…]

[url]http://www.freewebs.com/stonefieldswels…]
scroll down to Rafia and the mare below her

[url]http://www.designerwelshponies.com/Emil…]

[url]http://www.equinenow.com/horse-ad-21742…]

[url]http://www.stallionsnow.com/stallion-ad…]

a few examples, I have seen stronger ones especialy in the welsh cobs, it is quite a common colouring and a number have been tested ee zz.

I agree this is a strange one - the Draughts looks silver but like the Welsh they just might not be - do you know if anyone has bothered to test one???

I have seen Cobs as dark as that without Silver, I am afraid I do not have pictures as it was some years back.
Welsh Cobs go very much in "fashions" and, a few years back, there were a couple of fashionable Cobs that were dark Chestnut and threw quite a few "black" Chestnuts. Add the blonde mane and tail et voila.

I've been googling comtois and not found anything definitive, although I did find quite a discussion on one board where most people thought they were actually chestnut with sooty (in the main because the standard calls them chestnut).
Unfortunatly I'm no longer a member of the board where I saw the pic of the comtois x percheron (I think because I never posted there) but it was clearly silver black- that slightly lighter type that shows the dapples in the coat clearly. It was still a foal (1ish) and didn't look at all like it was going grey.
I'm still sure they are silver.

[quote="lillith"][quote]This exists in Welsh without silver?

http://www.chevaux-de-trait.eu/chevaux/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false; ... ex.266.jpg[/quote]

Not to that extreme but the redder dark with flaxen in a previous post, yes.

[url]http://www.freewebs.com/stonefieldswels…]

[url]http://www.freewebs.com/stonefieldswels…]
scroll down to Rafia and the mare below her

[url]http://www.designerwelshponies.com/Emil…]

[url]http://www.equinenow.com/horse-ad-21742…]

[url]http://www.stallionsnow.com/stallion-ad…]

a few examples, I have seen stronger ones especialy in the welsh cobs, it is quite a common colouring and a number have been tested ee zz.[/quote]
None of these even look remotely silver to me. And DEFINITELY no where near as silver looking as the Comtois do.

Rejoined the forum I mentioned but all old posts have been archived and no pics. Comtois just look silver to me. I know some are chestnut/flaxen and dark liver chestnut/flaxen can look like silver black, but does anyone have pics of chestnut flaxen that is sooty so it looks like silver bay? I've seen sooty Haflingers but they don't look silver and I'm not sure its the same gene causing their flaxen as causes flaxen in dark liver and flaxen?
Also, look at pics of Noriker horses, some of them are very dark with light manes but they look dark liver to me not silver black.

I'm going to see if I can get ahold of some people in France to try to find someone willing to let their horses be tested. Guess it's time to call in a few favors... I'll let you guys know if I make progress.