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Appaloosa patterned foal out of "solid" parents...

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accphotography
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Appaloosa patterned foal out of "solid" parents...
For those of you that were on Heather's board before moving here we discussed a blanketed foal out of a total non characteristic mare and by a Warmblood stallion. The mare is an Appaloosa, so the blood is there, but her owner swears there is no sign of characteristics anywhere. Some of us thought maybe she was carrying LP anyway and the sire was carrying a hidden PATN. Well, she foaled today. The foal is by a gray Warmblood stallion (different stallion). Precious little chestnut... with a teensy blanket (really just a few white spots). Apparently this mare IS carrying both LP and PATN (and is 2 for 2 at passing BOTH on) and yet shows no sign of it on the outside. I find this utterly FASCINATING.
Sara
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Re: Appaloosa patterned foal out of "solid" parents...

pics! :mrgreen:

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accphotography
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Re: Appaloosa patterned foal out of "solid" parents...

I won't post it here without permission (she's cautious about her privacy), but I'll ask if she minds.

IMAGE(http://i173.photobucket.com/albums/w65/accphotography/Misc/Sig.png) IMAGE(http://phrf.pitapata.com/uno2m5.png)

accphotography
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Re: Appaloosa patterned foal out of "solid" parents...

Here ya go:
IMAGE(http://www.horsegroomingsupplies.com/pictures/files/2/2/6/5/2/p1010004.jpg)

IMAGE(http://i173.photobucket.com/albums/w65/accphotography/Misc/Sig.png) IMAGE(http://phrf.pitapata.com/uno2m5.png)

lipigirl
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Re: Appaloosa patterned foal out of "solid" parents...

Any more pics that could just be lacing ?

accphotography
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Re: Appaloosa patterned foal out of "solid" parents...

No more pics as of now. I've never seen lacing be present at birth. If this mare hadn't already had true blanket foal by a Holsteiner I'd be suspicious too.

IMAGE(http://i173.photobucket.com/albums/w65/accphotography/Misc/Sig.png) IMAGE(http://phrf.pitapata.com/uno2m5.png)

dakotakdq
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Re: Appaloosa patterned foal out of "solid" parents...

wow how fascinating!!!

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Monsterpony
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Re: Appaloosa patterned foal out of "solid" parents...

Very cool. It is cases like this that make me lean towards polygenic inheritance.

.

accphotography
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Re: Appaloosa patterned foal out of "solid" parents...

I can certainly see why MP.

IMAGE(http://i173.photobucket.com/albums/w65/accphotography/Misc/Sig.png) IMAGE(http://phrf.pitapata.com/uno2m5.png)

NZ Appaloosas
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Re: Appaloosa patterned foal out of "solid" parents...

Mare is not carrying "PATN". If she were, she would have something other than minimal characteristics. However, there is nothing that says that the sire can't have PATN and nothing for PATN to work on...

Diane

accphotography
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Re: Appaloosa patterned foal out of "solid" parents...

A Warmblood and an ISH, neither of which have ever been claimed to have any tie to patterning genes, just happen to produce a patterned foal to the same mare? Seems the statistics are on the other side of the argument to me.

IMAGE(http://i173.photobucket.com/albums/w65/accphotography/Misc/Sig.png) IMAGE(http://phrf.pitapata.com/uno2m5.png)

Sara
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Re: Appaloosa patterned foal out of "solid" parents...

The mare has to have color somewhere -- did they ever really go looking? While they were AI-ing her maybe?

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accphotography
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Re: Appaloosa patterned foal out of "solid" parents...

They can't find a thing. I think she may have some hoof stripes, but that's it.

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Sara
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Re: Appaloosa patterned foal out of "solid" parents...

But did they look where Diane said to look? I don't know what I can say here... did Daylene set filters?

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Monsterpony
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Re: Appaloosa patterned foal out of "solid" parents...

I don't think there are a lot of filters as I've used medical terms and not been censored.

.

Sara
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Re: Appaloosa patterned foal out of "solid" parents...

Okay, well Diane said that she's seen a mare whose only color is inside her vulva, not visible from the outside. Or does that mare belong to Diane?? I don't recall now.

I know that's just an anatomical term but Daylene seems pretty conservative so I wasn't sure what was okay with her.

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accphotography
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Re: Appaloosa patterned foal out of "solid" parents...

I don't know. She's been AI'd twice, but I don't know if they'd have noticed.

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Monsterpony
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Re: Appaloosa patterned foal out of "solid" parents...

You would have to be looking for it to see it because it would take maneuvering the speculum around a bit to find them. I know that when I had a speculum in a mare, the last thing I was worried about look for was signs of mottling.

.

Daylene Alford
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Re: Appaloosa patterned foal out of "solid" parents...

Isn't this foal by a different sire than the first one? What are the chances of two sires from nonappy breeds both carrying a hidden PATN and passing it to the foal?

Sara
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Re: Appaloosa patterned foal out of "solid" parents...

exactly. It's much more likely that this color is coming from the "solid" Appy dam than the WB sires.

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NZ Appaloosas
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Re: Appaloosa patterned foal out of "solid" parents...

A Warmblood and an ISH, neither of which have ever been claimed to have any tie to patterning genes, just happen to produce a patterned foal to the same mare? Seems the statistics are on the other side of the argument to me.

Mare is "appaloosa-bred", just believed to be non-characteristic. However, we do know that characteristics can be minimal to the point of non-recognition to the lay eye, and well, in areas people don't normally go a-lookin'! LOL So, mama passed on the Lp, and papa apparently had the gene(s) needed to light up that Lp.

Diane

NZ Appaloosas
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Re: Appaloosa patterned foal out of "solid" parents...

Okay, well Diane said that she's seen a mare whose only color is inside her vulva, not visible from the outside. Or does that mare belong to Diane?? I don't recall now.

I know that's just an anatomical term but Daylene seems pretty conservative so I wasn't sure what was okay with her.

Yep on both accounts, Sara. It is my mare, and I was the one who said it. :angel And it wasn't our vet who found the mottled skin, but Rebecca and Sheila. IIRC, the mottling was found both in her vulva and in her anus. As I was holding Pearl's head, I really didn't get to see the examination myself. I'll try to remember to ask our vet if he noticed, but possibly he didn't. If he spread Pearl, he would have been using a speculum (right, MP?), and that could possibly have covered the mottling.

Diane

NZ Appaloosas
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Re: Appaloosa patterned foal out of "solid" parents...

Isn't this foal by a different sire than the first one? What are the chances of two sires from nonappy breeds both carrying a hidden PATN and passing it to the foal?

Probably a lot better than we think. I'm with Rabbit in that I do not believe there is an "appaloosa-only" PATN gene or genes. I think that the "helper" genes for white expression are very possibly wide-spread in the equine world, and it's going to be well past my lifetime before they are all found... There are numerous examples of breeders being surprised by the level of patterning coming from "crossing out" of appaloosas...what makes a solid of appaloosa x appaloosa breeding more valuable for the passing on of a visible coat pattern is the statistical "knowledge" that the deck was stacked for PATN to be passed on by using two patterned horse.

Diane

Daylene Alford
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Re: Appaloosa patterned foal out of "solid" parents...

Sorry Sara but that made me laugh. I do have a few words censored but not many. Medical terms are always fine...I don't even have "sex" filtered! :laugh1

That is pretty interesting NZ. I hadn't though of it that way.

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Re: Appaloosa patterned foal out of "solid" parents...

If he spread Pearl, he would have been using a speculum (right, MP?), and that could possibly have covered the mottling.

Depends on if he used a speculum or a "speculum" (what a lot of people call basically a tube/cylinder). With a real speculum, you could see mottling if you were looking for it. With a tube, you can't see anything other than the cervix.

.

NZ Appaloosas
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Re: Appaloosa patterned foal out of "solid" parents...

Well, in a few short months, you're gonna be able to answer that question! LOL Hmmm, might just have to have you do an exam and take photos, so we show exactly what I'm talking about... :laugh1

Diane