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Manchado overo

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LesliKathman
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Manchado overo
I didn't want to copy them directly here, but I did have permission to post them on the horse color blog, so here is a link to what is probably a manchado + sabino pattern. Manchado Polo Pony There is also a previous post about manchado from yesterday that has an illustration of the basic pattern (without the sabino effect) and some links to other manchados. Speculations about manchado
RiddleMeThis
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I don't think thats manchado.

I don't think thats manchado.

It really looks more like a heavily heavily roaned/minimalized DW to me. You can see a very similar patterning in this mare
IMAGE(http://www.angelfire.com/on3/TrueColoursFarm/images/GG-IrisBaby1.jpg)

And it looks similar to this stallion as well
IMAGE(http://perloch.ps.free.fr/sire/pscouleurs/colourful_gambler.jpg)

IMAGE(http://alterna-tickers.com/tickers/generated_tickers/i/ikmc9z103.png)

LesliKathman
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And it may well be just an

And it may well be just an oddly skewed sabino or dominant white. But the spotting on the hindquarters makes me suspect the manchado pattern along with sabino, if only because it looks so much like some of the others (only shrunken and made more dense) that I have seen.

One of the things that makes him different from the horses you posted is the density of the hair pigment on his spots. That is what gives him (especially from the rear view) that false-leopard appearance. That's actually how I found the Hackneys that were referenced in the previous blog post; I was approached by a Hackney breeder who thought they had found appaloosa in the breed.

I do wish he hadn't been wrapped for the game when Martina took the shots, because I'd love to see what is happening with his legs. If you look at the horses that you posted, the white goes up from the legs and connects with the body white. That's what I meant in the post about sabino (and DW, for that matter) having a bottom-up progression and a ventral concentration. Manchado has a dorsal concentration and a top-down progression. I suspect that his legs, if we could see them completely, would tell a bit more about which direction his pattern tended. But even from these photos, they are darker than what I would expect from a dominant white.

JNFerrigno
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Looks just like this
LesliKathman
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The difference between that

The difference between that one and the horse posted on the blog is primarily along the top of the hindquarters and the tail. The one that you linked is a pretty common expression of patterning in Paints, and I suspect that a similar gene is at work breaking down the manchado pattern. That is what sabino tends to do with other patterns. It breaks down the spots, rags the edges and/or amplifies the white.

What makes the pato horse different is how much the top of his hindquarter looks like leopard spotting rather than sabino roaning. That is one of the ways that manchado differs from the other pinto patterns; it looks a bit like leopard patterning. His hindquarters do not appear ticked (as the linked photo does) so much as they appear to have clusters of dark spotting.

The other oddity that made him stand out to me is the clean white area around his tail (most visible in the hind shot). Sabino can put pink-skinned white areas on the horse, but that placement would be odd. On a manchado, that appears to be one of the points of origin.

But again, with a rare pattern - and a common pattern that is really a catch-all for a lot of different things - it is all pretty much guesswork.

RiddleMeThis
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LesliKathman wrote:That is

That is one of the ways that manchado differs from the other pinto patterns; it looks a bit like leopard patterning.

I have yet to see a Manchado looks anything like any of the LP patterns.

And even in the LP patterns or other patterns that sabino effects it is still VERY obvious that the horse is the other pattern as well. I have never seen sabino distort a patter and make it look nothing like the original.

IMAGE(http://alterna-tickers.com/tickers/generated_tickers/i/ikmc9z103.png)

LesliKathman
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I should have been more

I should have been more specific. The round spotting inside the white area of a manchado is reminiscent of leopard patterning.

JNFerrigno
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I think that all we're seeing

I think that all we're seeing here is a different level of expression of a gene. What ever it is that we call sabino in this case, has been seen to cause those smaller spots. To often I think that when we see something that is different then the norm, we conclude it must be a new or different mutation, especially when it comes to white patterns. All the horses posted above I feel don't follow the 'norm' of manchado, or at least not what we see in paintings and photos, even the polo pony.

LesliKathman
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Since it is easier for me to

Since it is easier for me to post photo comparisons there, I placed them on the blog.

http://equinetapestry.com/2011/06/28/man...

I didn't know which polo pony you were referring to, though - the one pictured in the blog post or the one linked to on allbreed?

RiddleMeThis
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My only problem with that

My only problem with that blog is that it does what a lot of people do. And that is pick one single piece of the horse and say "Look!! It matches!!" Well great. That one single portion matches but what about the REST of the horse? You can't just take bits and pieces and match them up. It has to be a whole horse thing.

Sure, portions look like one thing, and portions look like another, but the pieces combined don't.

IMAGE(http://alterna-tickers.com/tickers/generated_tickers/i/ikmc9z103.png)

LesliKathman
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The rest of the horses either

The rest of the horses either appeared full-bodied in the previous posts, or are well-known examples, or have full-body images linked. (Well, aside from the appaloosas... didn't think anyone needed to know what the rest of a leopard looks like...)

I'm not sure why the post is generating so much hostility and accusations that I am trying to mislead anyone. I have stated there, and will state again, that I am speculating on the presence of manchado in addition to sabino. It might not be there. It might be. That's all it is. When people seemed perplexed by what I was seeing, and posted horses that they saw as "the same", I posted to show what I saw as unusual about the horse.

I am all for debating issues about horse color, but that doesn't work well if people are going to assume poor faith from the start.

Threnody
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I'm quite enjoying the

I'm quite enjoying the debate. I can see where everyone is getting their personal ideas on what this horse is. Considering how this horse looks and where it was born, manchado seems like a logical plausibility. Could it also be just a sabino pattern instead? Absolutely. Wish we knew what his parents looked like!

Discussions like this are what this forum is for and I find the varied ideas and theories everyone presents fascinating.
:GTM
I also needed an excuse to use this guy. -_^

Daylene Alford
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I just wanted to post this

I just wanted to post this guy from the gallery
IMAGE(http://equine.colorgenetics.info/equine_gallery/d/1483-3/Trabag+Right+Side.jpg?g2_GALLERYSID=8d58f7ea7d3afe8a5f1c9f7929aa913d)

Would it be possible to post full body shots of the horses discussed to this thread? I find it difficult to compare the patterns when I have to go from page to page.

LesliKathman
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You would need to contact the

You would need to contact the photographers to get permission. Unless the photos are offered as stock, or have a creative commons license, I don't repost in different places. Because I purchase creative licenses as part of my work, I try to be really careful about that kind of thing and only use the photo for the specific purpose I requested.

It does limit discussions, though! And I sure wish they'd pass the Orphan Works law! I have tons of wonderful photos that I cannot use in the books I am writing because I have NO idea who took them. Heck, a lot of them were taken at state studs of countries (or at least governments) that don't even exist anymore!

Daylene Alford
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That's why I asked... Have

That's why I asked... Have to be careful with the copyright stuff... ~x(

LesliKathman
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I am curious who you asked to

I am curious who you asked to use the photos of Trabag and Royal Manchado? I'd love to contact them, too.

Daylene Alford
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No, we don't have that

No, we don't have that information. Thanks for bringing them to my attention I've asked the mod who uploaded them to add a disclaimer to them. I had assumed they were in the public domain but when I searched for them they weren't :oops:

LesliKathman
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No, they are too recent to be

No, they are too recent to be in the public domain. They are - like a lot of old horse photos - orphaned works. That's why I haven't uploaded the images I have of manchados. I suspect the man who sent them to me has since passed away, and have no way of confirming that or contacting his heirs.

LesliKathman
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You actually have a number of

You actually have a number of photos up in the historical section that are like that. Tory Morgan (Shartomar) did not take the pictures of Fantasy Fashion, so unless she contacted the photographer on your behalf, posting them is a no-no. I know that everyone online does this with historical horse photos (that's why I won't post the manchado photos I have... in days they would be spread across the internet with no regard for copyright), but if you want to play by the rules you can't do it.

Like I said, that darned Orphan Works law needs passing.

LesliKathman
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You actually have a number of

You actually have a number of photos up in the historical section that are like that. Tory Morgan (Shartomar) did not take the pictures of Fantasy Fashion, so unless she contacted the photographer on your behalf, posting them is a no-no. I know that everyone online does this with historical horse photos (that's why I won't post the manchado photos I have... in days they would be spread across the internet with no regard for copyright), but if you want to play by the rules you can't do it.

Like I said, that darned Orphan Works law needs passing.

Threnody
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Now I really wish I could see

Now I really wish I could see those other manchado images. O.O I just lookd up orphan works and there is a lot of historical footage that can't be shared in documentaries and museums because of this. Such a shame. They're effectively being lost in history from the average person.

JNFerrigno
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http://smart-child.deviantart

http://smart-child.deviantart.com/art/Ch...

*Edit. Apparently that is a TB, and this is his offspring http://smart-child.deviantart.com/art/Sp... Not manchado, but still thought it was interesting in this case, since the white was crossing over the hind quarters.

Here are some better photos. Hind quarters resemble an Appy much? LOL
http://smart-child.deviantart.com/art/Ch...
http://smart-child.deviantart.com/art/Ch...

Threnody
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Do we know if they are

Do we know if they are related to any known DW lines?

JNFerrigno
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I'll ask. I'm talking to her

I'll ask. I'm talking to her right now about some Cream horses she's been taking photos of in France. Some of them are cream pearls, so making another post.

Threnody
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Looking forward to the

Looking forward to the updates on both subjects. ^_^

JNFerrigno
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Her uncle is out of town

Her uncle is out of town right now, but when he gets back they might be going over for a visit again. So when I get some more information, I'll make a different thread about them.