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What would you do ? new update Pg3

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lipigirl
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What would you do ? new update Pg3
Since I had Brianna I have lost all my confidence for making decisions - oh and my brain too !!! :rofl But today I found out what I had suspected, the lady who sold me my Paso Fino, sold her in foal remember but the foal belonged to her and she took my mare back last summer and then didnt feed her properly and sent her back not only as skin and bone but also with food issues because she was starving and not having weaned the foal either so engorged. Anyway, I found out today that she has forged my signature on the foals registration papers and sent it in to the PFHA (they sent me a copy of the docs to show me) - I am furious this seems to me to be the last straw, along with the fact that she has also been bulling a good friend of mine for money she supposidly owes her !!! This lady is not very nice and seems to me to need to be stopped. I believe that forging someone's signature is a crime in the UK... What would you do ?
supaspot60
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Re: What would you do ?

Im not sure what Id do but she should not be allowed to get away with it ( at the very least inform PFHA of the forgery )

Heidi
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Re: What would you do ?

For starters, PFHA would be getting a certified letter. :evil:
It would include perhaps, the purchase agreement (esp where it stated she'd care for your mare), photos of what your mare looked like, any/all damning statements the other party made (email copies, best) and this latest transgression of the forged signature.
All of this may, or may not, be accompanied with a note on an attorney's letterhead. :twisted:

In addition, you could include a copy to that seller, or wait until you hear from PFHA about what they plan to do to her, in case you don't wish to reveal your hand to her and she takes evasive action (makes up stories).
Best of luck,
heidi

CMhorses
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Re: What would you do ?

I would take it to the police. Gather all the evidence you can and get her what she deserves legally.

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vneerland
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Re: What would you do ?

Why did she (have) your signature on the foals papers? :shock:
That would imply that you owned the foal? :?
So since she did not own it (I agree with who said to 'show me the purchase agreement) she cannot sell it. Since she forged your signature, I would 'get the foal back'. If it is sold already (is it?) the new owner would get very mad, but likely at the dishonest seller, not you.
After a registered letter to her, that should be CC'd to the PFHA, I would have her squirm a while, before I would agree to sign off on the foal. Which could be after she pays you for the (vet) bills that were aquired in the process of getting Canela back up to where she needed to be.
Have some fun with her. To say the least, she deserves it. :evil:

PamelaTX
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Re: What would you do ?

I agree with Judith.

The nerve of some people!!

NZ Appaloosas
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Re: What would you do ?

First off, how much skin off your nose is the forged signature (other than the whole "how dare she" thing, of course")? Secondly, how much headache are you willing to endure? Remember, you will need to provide proof that she did indeed forge your signature, whether you go the registry (assuming that they will actually do anything) or to the police.

If you're willing to put up with the hassle, then the next step I would take is to talk to your lawyer. S/he can best advise you.

Diane

lipigirl
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Re: What would you do ?

To get things straight.

She sold me my Paso Fino in foal but the agreement was that she owned the foal.
Because I am the registered owner of the Mare she still needed my signature to register it but instead of asking for it she used my signature from the sales agreement and just forged it and sent it off to the PFHA to be registered. I only found out because someone saw her do it and told me. I couldn't believe she would be stupid enough to do it so asked the PFHA if she had and sure enough....... ! I believe she also told the same person who told me that she has done it before !!! - bragging about breaking the law !

Anyway, I am thinking about what to do next but at the moment she will have a foal that she can't register without my signature - sorry but she has made me very angry now and a I said she is actively bulling a friend of mine to pay her money she doesn't owe but because she has sent her a legal looking letter my poor friend is terrified and does not have the money to pay her, nor should she in my opinion. I can't stand people that bulling others, neglect and abuse horses or any animal and then tell everyone vis thier website as thier credentials how clever they are because they have been in horses for 12yrs !!!!! :rofl :evil:

NZ Appaloosas
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Re: What would you do ?

Anger is very well and all, but you haven't answered my question...are you up to dealing with the hassle and headache of proving she committed fraud? Will this person who says she saw the other woman forge your signature sign a legal document to this, and testify to this? You can't testify as to what someone told you someone else said...that's hearsay.

As for your friend who received the letter, the only thing she can do is to go to her solicitor, show the letter and get advice. If she does not owe this woman money, she will need to respond with the proof that she does not owe the money (just as, if things proceed, the woman you got your paso from will have to prove that your friend owes the money). Since the friend received what you are calling a "legal looking" letter, again I advise seeking a lawyer/solicitor. I'm not familiar enough with UK legal procedures to suggest anything else, really. But, basic jurisprudence is pretty much the same between US, UK, NZ, AU.

Diane

rabbitsfizz
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Re: What would you do ?

Or your friend could do what the woman doing the bullying would do and just ignore the whole thing!!
Even if she takes her to small claims she has no legal way of recovering the money, I have been through this with someone who really did owe me money, for an Arab colt.
I never got the money and I never got the colt, the only thing I could do is send a letter to the AHS so they could not register the foal, and if you do not want a lot of aggro I suggest this is what you do also.
In innocence, send a letter to the PF Society, stating that you are the registered owner of the mare, and Ms So and So has not requested your signature for the papers of the foal, nor have you given it, and is this normal procedure???
Write simply, imply nothing, you are merely writing to them out of simple curiosity.
Allow can of worms to open nice and slowly, instead of exploding!!

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lipigirl
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Re: What would you do ?

Diane I get what you are saying and because I am still angry I wont do anything as yet. I don't need anyone to testify about the signature, the PFHA sent me a copy of the document she sent in with my signature forged on it...there is no question that she signed it and sent it in. What I may do is let her know that I know what she has done and that I am not happy about it - then see what she does.

But yes Diane I understand that it could be a lot of hassle and I may not take it to the police but I would like to stop her doing it again.

My friend is now taking legal advice on the other matter. ;)

vneerland
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Re: What would you do ?

Diane I get what you are saying and because I am still angry I wont do anything as yet. I don't need anyone to testify about the signature, the PFHA sent me a copy of the document she sent in with my signature forged on it...there is no question that she signed it and sent it in. What I may do is let her know that I know what she has done and that I am not happy about it - then see what she does.

I think Diane is saying that you would have to prove it is not your signature: that you did not sign and change your mind afterwards. ;)
While I am sure that Diane is right about some things, I personally don't function that way. Bully me, and I will bully back. Lie to me, and I will expose it. Don't be afraid to stand up for what is right. I have been through several situations where people twisted the truth to fit their wants and needs. I have always stuck to the truth and done well with it. (thank God) You have little to lose. Expose the fraud (to the registry, who may already know since you asked for the copy) and get her stuck with an unpapered foal, at least until she makes things right. JMHO.

Andrea
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Re: What would you do ?

Diane I get what you are saying and because I am still angry I wont do anything as yet. I don't need anyone to testify about the signature, the PFHA sent me a copy of the document she sent in with my signature forged on it...there is no question that she signed it and sent it in. What I may do is let her know that I know what she has done and that I am not happy about it - then see what she does.

But yes Diane I understand that it could be a lot of hassle and I may not take it to the police but I would like to stop her doing it again.

My friend is now taking legal advice on the other matter. ;)

In my humble opinion, you should make her life helI. People like this get away with it because no one either wants to put in the effort to press charges or are afraid they'll look like the bad guy. Hence she's become a bully and feels she can do whatever the heck she wants to. Last I heard, forgery was a crime and should be punished as such. Morally the colt is hers, but you should notify the registry that she did forge your signature and you would like them to set up a diciplinary action. Then go to the law enforcement and ask them to press charges. Who cares if she doesn't go to jail or anything, but hopefully she'll be up to her ears in paperwork for a while!
Sorry... Off my soap box!

lipigirl
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Re: What would you do ?

My hubby agrees with you, someone needs to take a stand against her. At the very least she will have now an unregistered foal. :twisted:

critterkeeper
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Re: What would you do ?

It isn't like she hasn't already made her money off the value of the foal by NOT feeding its MOTHER!!! :angry Just be forewarned that it WILL be a major hassel, but as long as there is a witness to her forging the signature and her admitting that she'd done it before, she may lose her ability to register future foals along with her membership in the PFHA...which would make it all worthwhile. :twisted:

Kylene "A dog has lots of friends because he wags his tail and not his tongue." ~ Anonymous

lipigirl
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Re: What would you do ?

ROTFL CK !!!!!!! When I complained about the state of my mare she complained to me that it was costing her a fortune to feed her and wasn't that terrible for her - ahhhhhhhhhh poor lamb !!! Don't you feel sorry for her??? :? .....so I think if you asked HER she would tell you that she made no money at all out of the £2000 colt !!!...well she wont now !

I would like to add at this point that if she was genuinely sorry for what she had done and if she wanted to make up for it THEN I would reconsider. :angel

Sara
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Re: What would you do ?

I like Rabbit's idea...

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Andrea
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Re: What would you do ?

I think the registry would be less likely to reprimand her if you acted like you didn't know she had done anything wrong.
What she did was totally wrong and you should scream at the registry until they open a can of whoop@ss on her. Make her submit documentation proving all her previous registrations were on the up and up. They may ask for documentation that charges have been pressed before they act though.

I'm on the fence on withholding the papers from the foal. That just hurts the foal and without papers he would have a better chance ending up on a meat truck.

rabbitsfizz
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Re: What would you do ?

No, if you scream at the registry I think they will think you are "out to get her" for personal reasons....there is no reason why you can't start off gently and polite, if the registry is above board it would get right on it....I know ours would, as it has happened, luckily it was all sorted out without the animal losing it's papers.
I don't think the colt should necessarily lose his papers but I do think it should all be "frozen" so she cannot sell the colt til it is sorted.
This is FRAUD and it is taken very seriously.
It will be impossible to get anyone to witness that she said what she said, people just disappear when this is suggested, BUT you do not have to prove it is not your signature, she would have to prove that it is, and you can prove, far more easily, that you did not sign the papers.
An innocent letter asking if the colt has been registered without your signature, as you have not supplied it would , I think at least, be a subtle beginning to doing so!!

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lipigirl
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Re: What would you do ?

The PFHA know she forged my signature, as I asked if papers had been sent in for him, they said yes and I said but I didn't sign them !! They then sent me copies but they don't seem to be too upset about it! I know she boasted to my friend that she has done it before so yes I agree Fizz, they should re-check all her other registrations - especially unfortunately Canela's my mare as I'm sure something fishy has gone on there.

Am going to put Brianna to bed but will be back later to explain why I think it's dodgey !

OK, back now.......this woman sold me my mare (Canela) but as Canela had had such a chequered past it was unsure whether she was going to be registered. She was owned by a man in Europe who had bought several Pasos as a tax dodge, he then got in big trouble with the tax man and did a runner taking all the Pasos papers, he is still in hiding from the government (who seized all the Pasos as capital and sold them on), he also left the Pasos near starving and in poor condition (this is one of the reasons I am doubly cross that Canela was starved again !!) anyway I digress, the lady who sold me Canela told me that she had spoken to the PFHA and she thought she would be able to get the papers for me. Because Canela was quite expensive for her age and might not have papers I made a deal that she had to produce the reg papers in my name by the time the foal was born or the foal became mine. The papers did turn up in time but my reason for doubt is that the PFHA are now also asking for this man's signature as the owner of Canela at the time of breeding (as she was still in his name)...now if they knew all this about this man surely they wouldn't be asking for his signature would they ??? Makes me wonder if she forged his signature too ! What do you reckon ?......I dont care if she is reg in my name really she is definitely a Paso Fino and I know her parentage ect.

As to the foal, PFs are still so rare in this country (less than 50) that this foal would not end up in a meat factory - someone would buy him without papers and love him - I would have done. ;)

NZ Appaloosas
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Re: What would you do ?

Diane I get what you are saying and because I am still angry I wont do anything as yet. I don't need anyone to testify about the signature, the PFHA sent me a copy of the document she sent in with my signature forged on it...there is no question that she signed it and sent it in. What I may do is let her know that I know what she has done and that I am not happy about it - then see what she does.

But yes Diane I understand that it could be a lot of hassle and I may not take it to the police but I would like to stop her doing it again.

My friend is now taking legal advice on the other matter. ;)

Playing devil's advocate here...how are you going to prove that you didn't sign it? You know you didn't, but that's not proof. All she has to do is say "but she's been under so much stress, she doesn't remember signing it" or "she signed it when we made the deal and left it undated since the foal wasn't born, and just doesn't remember". Unfortunately, when it's a she said/she said situation (and this is what this is, without any other corraborating evidence), the "cuz I know I didn't" stance doesn't hold much water. And the registry may well decide this belongs in the "too hard" basket, they have a signature, so if any party says different, may take the stance of "take it to civil court, not our problem". I don't want you to have a bad flavour left in your mouth if the registry decides that they are not set up to deal with this without hard evidence to make it so obvious a baby could see it.

If this were me, and I wasn't in a total piss-ant mood, I'd send her an official letter demanding that she explain herself. I would further then offer to officially/properly sign the necessary forms so that the foal can be properly registered. I wouldn't make noise about taking it further with either registry or police, unless you're pretty sure you can cope with the hassle. And, yes, of course, I wouldn't have any letter going out without first having a discussion with my lawyer. I look at it this way...most of us will go to the doctor, even if we know we broke a bone, to get the bone set properly. Should be the same way when dealing with legal issues. And, at least in my experience, a lot of lawyers are willing to take a phone call to discuss the basics of a situation, at little or no expense, especially if you already have a working relationship with that person.

Diane

lipigirl
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Re: What would you do ?

I get what you are saying, actually any signature expert could tell you it was not my signature but in any case, I am thinking of going down the 'scare her silly' tactic.......she also stuffed herself up by sending me an email a few weeks ago when she knew I was asking if the docs had been sent and did she need my signature (I have been quietly looking in to this for a couple of months now )..telling me that she had signed the docs as the owner of the mare when she was bred and that she hadn't needed my signature !!! :D .....she would have to explain that one away too !!! :lol:

rabbitsfizz
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Re: What would you do ?

If you swear before an oath taker (solicitor, or basically anyone of legal standing willing to take your oath, ie your GP) that it is not your signature and you did not sign the papers it becomes legal.
It is then up to her to prove that you did sign and that your are committing perjury...that is the way the law stands here.
Doing that is a clear message to both the woman and the society that you intend to take this further....it now becomes a case of possible perjury (which is serious indeed) or fraud.
If she backs down the society is guilty of accepting a forged signature and issuing fraudulent registration documents....also a serious crime, I think it is part of what brought down one of the Haflinger societies in this country??
I think the law is slightly different in the US as the AMHA have no problem forcing people to register horses under incorrect colors/patterns and then issuing fraudulent registration papers for them........

I do agree with Diane that it is a lot of hassle, but I would send a copy of your signed statement to the Society (no need to actually swear it at this point, it may not come to that) and tell them that you take your word very seriously, as does the law, and that if they do nothing you will have to take the matter further yourself, and see what they do then.
I have seen this sort of thing before, with infant societies, this woman is probably someone "important" and they think that you are not!!
If you only knew of the discrepancies that occurred in the infancy of the BMHS!!!!
And the AMHA for that matter.....

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lipigirl
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Re: What would you do ? new update Pg3

OK, back now.......this woman sold me my mare (Canela) but as Canela had had such a chequered past it was unsure whether she was going to be registered. She was owned by a man in Europe who had bought several Pasos as a tax dodge, he then got in big trouble with the tax man and did a runner taking all the Pasos papers, he is still in hiding from the government (who seized all the Pasos as capital and sold them on), he also left the Pasos near starving and in poor condition (this is one of the reasons I am doubly cross that Canela was starved again !!) anyway I digress, the lady who sold me Canela told me that she had spoken to the PFHA and she thought she would be able to get the papers for me. Because Canela was quite expensive for her age and might not have papers I made a deal that she had to produce the reg papers in my name by the time the foal was born or the foal became mine. The papers did turn up in time but my reason for doubt is that the PFHA are now also asking for this man's signature as the owner of Canela at the time of breeding (as she was still in his name)...now if they knew all this about this man surely they wouldn't be asking for his signature would they ??? Makes me wonder if she forged his signature too ! What do you reckon ?......I dont care if she is reg in my name really she is definitely a Paso Fino and I know her parentage ect.

Well now folks I am really stumped !!! I have just come off thre phone with the head of registrations at PFHA and she told me that when Canela was transfered into my name the signature on it was the previous registered owner - which as you may remember is impossible as he is wanted by the German police and Interpol so if she managed to get his signature then she is talented ! The lady has forged yet another signature !!!!! - this is becoming a joke not least of which because the lovely lady at PFHA informed me that oh well she is registered in your name so what does it matter -they don't check signatures at PFHA !!! - like that is alright !....this can't be right can it and what to do now - have been biding my time waiting to see what the lady who had Canela is going to do next so didn't call PFHA till today - now I am furious that she can get away with all this !!...........ideas ?

critterkeeper
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Re: What would you do ? new update Pg3

Well, some people just don't care about the laws that govern civil society and this lady must be one of them. :evil: I don't know what to advise you at this point, seeing as PFHA doesn't seem to care about how authentic the signatures are, there is not much sense in developing and ulcer or worrying yourse :hammer lf half to death over it. :cry:

Kylene "A dog has lots of friends because he wags his tail and not his tongue." ~ Anonymous

rabbitsfizz
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Re: What would you do ? new update Pg3

OK, it depends what you want to do....you can report them to DEFRA and get the PIA involved and they may well end up shutting down the whole shebang as they did with the Haflingers.
Or you can just accept that you have fraudulent papers that are worth nothing.
Neither affects the horse!!

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lipigirl
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Re: What would you do ? new update Pg3

It's a real pain ! I think I will scare her anyway and I think I might also complain to the European part of the Paso Finos Assoc as they are at least as part of Europe supposed to care about these things.

Will let you know.

NZ Appaloosas
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Re: What would you do ? new update Pg3

This is a tough call...and part of it is I can't remember if you plan on breeding from this mare, down the road. One the one hand, if you have no intentions of showing in breed shows or breeding registerable foals, then taking things further (i.e., complaining to whatever authorities you can about the transfer into your name being a forged signature) still depends on what sort of hassles and hoops you're willing to put yourself thru'. On the flip side, if you do hope to show her in breed classes or produce registerable foals, taking this matter further may ruin those plans by getting her papers pulled, period. And getting her papers pulled does not necessarily mean that any foal prior to now will lose their papers as well--as an argumemt that those foals were registered in good faith could possibly be made.

Me, personally? With what I have going on in my life, I'd probably drop the matter as the mare is now in the proper owner's name. Some people just won't learn, no matter how much you throw books at them, and this lady is really sounding like one of those.

Diane

lipigirl
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Re: What would you do ? new update Pg3

Thanks Diane.x....will let you know how it all goes.