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What pattern is this pinto?

Gander July 11, 2009 February 22, 2011

Forums

In reading the descriptions he, in part, matches more than one possibility, although I'd guess tobiano. Thanks for any ideas!

Gander Sat, 07/11/2009 - 14:13

You're awesome! I get thrown off when some descriptions (such as Wikipedia) mention tobianos' white patches as being "rounded or oval in shape, rather than jagged (see Overo)." Sponenberg, meanwhile, says tobiano white areas "tend to have sharp, definitive edges."

This stuff could lead a person to some serious drinking. :rofl

The pinto in the photo seems to have black in his tail, and some people refer to this as 'tri colored' pinto. Sponenberg doesn't seem to use the term (at least not in his index, and I couldn't find it in a quick glance through the pinto/paint pages of his book). In this age of enlightenment, is it no longer a good term? (when we were kids, we called them tri colored...but we also called them piebalds and skewbalds) ;)

Thanks so much, ACC, for your help and knowledge! (as always!)

accphotography Sat, 07/11/2009 - 14:22

Tobiano can be rounded or jagged. It has a mind of it's own. The thing to remember about tobiano is that 95% of the time white will cross over the topline between the withers and the dock. With any other pattern that will NOT happen unless the horse is MOSTLY white (some overos will cross over in one small place, but they will be 90%+ white). Tobiano also looks as though the white moves vertically, down from the top. Overo moves horizontally across the body.

Tri-color is just a random term. Basically it was invented to describe bay pintos as they are often red, black and white. However those that have their black point on their legs covered (and usually most of their mane and tail) are sometimes not called that because the three colors just aren't very visible. Tri-color is a misnomer to me because it could mean ANYTHING. Buckskin pinto, bay silver pinto, bay pinto, amber pinto, dun pinto, dunskin pinto, etc. I much prefer to indicate the actual genotype by saying "bay tobiano" instead of "tri-color". But that's me. :D

Morgan Sat, 07/11/2009 - 14:59

[quote="accphotography"]Tobiano can be rounded or jagged. It has a mind of it's own. The thing to remember about tobiano is that 95% of the time white will cross over the topline between the withers and the dock. With any other pattern that will NOT happen unless the horse is MOSTLY white (some overos will cross over in one small place, but they will be 90%+ white). [/quote]
Except splash, I've seen splash cross over at about 50%. Sabino's the one that wont cross over unless it's nearly all white, frame I dont believe wil cross over at all on it's own.

accphotography Sat, 07/11/2009 - 15:06

Well splash won't cross over unless the horse is at least 50%+ white. Frame crosses over the neck at will, but not the back unless it's MAX frame. Obviously sabino does cross over when the horse is a max.

accphotography Sat, 07/11/2009 - 15:28

Sure. But the problem is who knows what's just frame alone? I can definitely show you frames without tobi that cross over and aren't even maximal.

lillith Sun, 07/12/2009 - 07:48

But thats crossing the neck not the back.....

I always look for legs/leg without white with body white and face white as a Frame indicator, though as always with that one TEST if there is any chance at all. Also the duckweed effect...random but I see FRAME screamed when the markings look like duckweed parting a sort of concave curve to a point effect.

Tobiano I look for chest and flank shields, V shapes down from the crest of the neck and even if something else is providing face white the jaw line is almost always coloured in my experience. The longer back than front socks and the way the white creeps up the back of the quarter from the socks to join the white on the back.

Splash is blue eyes to me, (very little frame in english breeds) bald faces, splodgey markings, belly white, sort of dipped in paint feet first feel. belly up markings, where tobiano is back down and frame is side on.

Sabino is..................anything that doesn't fit in with the above, roany bits, 'auras' on the coloured patches, stars, splats ect....

Kinda more about the feel of it than anything else, not too scientific.

As for the point of the thread, the horse at the top looks tobiano possibly + something else. The flank and chest shields are there and the back down look. Would need a whole body picture really to say any more.

accphotography Sun, 07/12/2009 - 12:52

I didn't say it crossed the back. I actually said the opposite.

[quote]Well splash won't cross over unless the horse is at least 50%+ white. Frame crosses over the neck at will, but not the back unless it's MAX frame.[/quote]

I have run across examples of horses that are not max frames and who have no tobiano who have crossed over the croup area, but not the back. I have seen MAX frames cross over the back, but I'm talking 95% white (and some of you will say it's due to another pattern, not frame, but I will disagree).

tjuri Thu, 07/16/2009 - 05:26

ACC, since the linked foal is a Medicine Hat and shows white legs and at least one blue eye, what might be the second pattern that went to the legs? Sabino or Splash? :?:

accphotography Thu, 07/16/2009 - 20:55

The sire of that horse definitely has splash but does not appear to be homozygous (and I see no real sabino characteristics, but you know how that goes). The dam IMO is frame only.

See this is where I differ from everyone else. I personally believe this exact phenotype can be caused by frame alone.

Don't forget frame causes blue eyes as well.

accphotography Fri, 07/17/2009 - 11:13

No... that is what people SAY frame does. There is no proof of that, and I don't subscribe to that theory. IMO frame will cause leg white in it's maximum form. It will prevent it in it's more minimal and sometimes moderate forms.

rabbitsfizz Fri, 07/17/2009 - 12:13

I agree.
When going from max to min Frame loses white on the legs first, but there is no reason why Frame in Max should not have four white legs...it would look pretty daft if it had solid legs!!! :rofl

I do suspect Sabino in there though, although the "shield" is not in the classic place it is there.

tjuri Fri, 07/17/2009 - 13:34

ACC and Rabbitsfizz: From my observation frame needs a white "booster" to express Medicine Hats, like Splash or Sabino - as for the posted mare I tend to Sabino as the booster because of the small spots often found in Sabino (and DW). ;) :?: And yes, blue eyes go with Frame as well, I was just assuming some other options... 8-) ;)

Rabbitsfizz: Why do you think the shield is not at its correct place? It should be on the chest was my understanding...? :?: :?

Jenks Fri, 07/17/2009 - 13:38

Surely it's one of the last places to go with the ears being the last, but I find it extremely difficult to believe it's frame alone.

accphotography Fri, 07/17/2009 - 14:33

Nope no frame in that Thoroughbred.

I am STILL of the opinion that the homozygous frame proves that frame causes leg white.

tjuri Fri, 07/17/2009 - 14:48

[quote="accphotography"]

I am STILL of the opinion that the homozygous frame proves that frame causes leg white.[/quote]

Yes, but they won't live for long with their white legs... :roll: :cry: :shock:

accphotography Fri, 07/17/2009 - 15:45

No they won't live long, however that has no bearing on their markings. If frame is an incomplete dominant (which it is) then it makes sense that a heterozygous will just be a lesser expression of the homozygous, thus in some cases it can cause leg white, especially the louder the pattern is. IMO of course...

Jenks Fri, 07/17/2009 - 18:14

[quote="accphotography"]Nope no frame in that Thoroughbred.

I am STILL of the opinion that the homozygous frame proves that frame causes leg white.[/quote]

Thanks! I'm collecting positive tested LWOs and seperate for suspects....I guess I'll make a folder for the non LWOs too!

rabbitsfizz Sat, 07/18/2009 - 04:18

I was not aware that people did not think Frame could cause leg white....where did that come from???
So people are saying that a max Frame would have a white body and coloured legs?????

Jenks Sat, 07/18/2009 - 07:06

[quote="rabbitsfizz"]I was not aware that people did not think Frame could cause leg white....where did that come from???
So people are saying that a max Frame would have a white body and coloured legs?????[/quote]

Not that it "can't" but just that it likes to leave some base on at least front leg like:

[img]http://i694.photobucket.com/albums/vv30…]
[img]http://i694.photobucket.com/albums/vv30…]
[img]http://i694.photobucket.com/albums/vv30…]
[img]http://i694.photobucket.com/albums/vv30…]
[img]http://i694.photobucket.com/albums/vv30…]

lipigirl Sat, 07/18/2009 - 07:21

Yes Jenks have seen Frames like that not seen one yet with all 4 legs coloured and body completely white but sure you can find one !