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What do you guys know of Zebra Genetics?

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accphotography
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Re: What do you guys know of Zebra Genetics?

An Appy foal can be born Red, and is Red, but can shed out to appearing to be black base, due to the effect of the Appy pattern.

Did you mean the reverse of this? I've never seen a red app look black except in a typical liver/sooty case. I have seen blacks look red though.

It certainly doesn't have to be cream, but it does appear to be some type of albinism gene, which would most likely be closely related to cream but granted might not work the same way.

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JNFerrigno
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Re: What do you guys know of Zebra Genetics?

That darkening works the same way in cattle. It's said to be wild type agouti with wild type extension (E+/A+). And typically the cattle darken with age. But some don't and just appear shaded, so it's not known for sure what causes this difference.

http://doublehelixranch.com/colorPart3.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

I could also agree with the albino mutation occurring in the Zebra. Then I wonder what would be the cause of the brown zebras.

Alright here's what we do. I'm sure there is a vet on here. We take the vet, find someone that's a good shooter. Go on safari, tranq these zebras and collect dna samples!

Threnody
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Re: What do you guys know of Zebra Genetics?

Pictures!!!!!! I want to see a non-dun Fjord! It has been a goal of mine since I found out that Fjords are not homozygous dun.

Glad I can help with that. ^_^

IMAGE(http://i872.photobucket.com/albums/ab283/talkingmongo0se/bay_fjord.jpg)

Here you go! When my hardrive crashed a few months ago this was the pic I was most worried about losing. It's my personal "holy grail" of rare horse color photos :P

And now the Fjord x Friesian. For such a random cross I think he came out really nice.

IMAGE(http://i872.photobucket.com/albums/ab283/talkingmongo0se/fjordxfriesian.png)

And now to tie back to the original thread topic a fjord zorse!

IMAGE(http://i872.photobucket.com/albums/ab283/talkingmongo0se/zorse_5.jpg)

And since they weren't mentioned before:

Abundistic zebras

IMAGE(http://i872.photobucket.com/albums/ab283/talkingmongo0se/photo.jpg)
IMAGE(http://i872.photobucket.com/albums/ab283/talkingmongo0se/Zebra_mutation2.jpg)

and melnanistic zebras

IMAGE(http://i872.photobucket.com/albums/ab283/talkingmongo0se/zebra-foal-2.jpg)
IMAGE(http://i872.photobucket.com/albums/ab283/talkingmongo0se/Zebra_mutation3.jpg)

I am coincidentally currently working on an art piece that includes the rump patterns of all 9 zebra species and subspecies. Needless to say I have a TON of reference photos (I even have pics of the rare Selous Zebra). I'll probably end up posting comparison photos of the different kinds later when I have more time :P

Alright here's what we do. I'm sure there is a vet on here. We take the vet, find someone that's a good shooter. Go on safari, tranq these zebras and collect dna samples!

Lol. Or we could inquire at some local zoos. But your way does sound so much more exotic adventurous ^_^ I'll volunteer as an assistant!

JNFerrigno
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Re: What do you guys know of Zebra Genetics?

just doing more digging for my own little zeboo project. According to the IZZZA judging standards they say that zebras can get a winter coat, and have sun bleaching which may result in brown coloring. But the site has been a work in progress for as long as I can remember, and there are no photos to compare. What I think they mean by sun bleaching is just the typical red highlights we see in some black animals.

And then I found this photo. It's HUGE but has pretty good detail
http://www.tanzaniatouristboard.com/gall..." onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

accphotography
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Re: What do you guys know of Zebra Genetics?

The abundistics look like they have giant bider markings (a dun thing).

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JNFerrigno
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Re: What do you guys know of Zebra Genetics?

The abundistics look like they have giant bider markings (a dun thing).

Yeah I noticed that on some other odd marked zebras. It's also interesting to note that their pattern has white spots in the black stripes. Some you can see this better then others, but you can usually see it on the chest, fetlocks, inside legs, and the but cheeks. I've seen some that you can see the spots over the body stripes, and inside the shadow stripes.

On the bidder marking thing, look at some of the zorses, the striping/motteling looks just like what we see in extreme duns.

rabbitsfizz
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Re: What do you guys know of Zebra Genetics?

No, I do not mean the opposite.
A Red based Appy will, sometimes, maybe even often, shed out to look black based....the front half of my Red base Appy foal now looks black based, his spots have "condensed" the colour to very dark red but some of the spots look black (you were thinking Leopard, weren't you, and I was thinking extended blanket + varnish!!) This colts grandsire was Red based Leopard and he looked, in a good light, Bay base, in a bad light Black base.
The colour intensifies in the spots, in a lot of Appies.
If it did the same think in a Zebra you would get an animal that looked Black based but was, in fact, Red based.
Although I have to say I have not seen anything quite as deep a black as a Zebra's stripes.

Is Pearl considered an Albinism?

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accphotography
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Re: What do you guys know of Zebra Genetics?

Yes, the really loud ones look alot like baby Tapir's spots.

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accphotography
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Re: What do you guys know of Zebra Genetics?

Yes, Pearl is as well since it's another allele on the MATP locus.

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JNFerrigno
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Re: What do you guys know of Zebra Genetics?

Check out this nummy little morsel http://i1.treknature.com/photos/5857/equ..." onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Found out from a Zebra hunting site that the pale cream almost white ones they are calling albinos, and the other lighter golden to chocolate ones they are calling leucistic.

This another oddity but large and in color http://pictures.guidesandlodges.com/Phot..." onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Check out the face on this Cape Mountain Zebra http://us.123rf.com/400wm/400/400/EcoSna..." onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

I wonder if there are any aa/EE Zebra, http://us.123rf.com/400wm/400/400/dirkr/..." onclick="window.open(this.href);return false; this picture here looks like a A-/EE and an aa/EE. If the striping dilutes like CM proposed, doesn't that look like Grulla to you?

In looking at quagga skins, I've seen most of them loom red and brown, with no black striping in zebra. However they have the light underbelly so it hides if they are wild bay or not. http://www.zsm.mwn.de/mam/i/quagga.jpg" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false; I suspect they were wild bay, and then in that case maybe that idea of pigment concentration in the striped areas is true. In many of the quagga skins the striping is a darker brown, but not dark enough to be black, so it could be a faint left over of concentrated pigment. ...not sure if that all made sense or not, I'm at the tail end of this darn cold.

And then just some humor for you
IMAGE(http://us.123rf.com/400wm/400/400/JohanSwan/JohanSwan1007/JohanSwan100700032/7402607-animal-humour-zebra-barking-seen-through-elephants-legs-etosha.jpg)

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Re: What do you guys know of Zebra Genetics?

Threnody- You are my new favorite person! May I send that image to some friends of mine that I have been discussing fjord colors with. That reminds me, I need to post the story of how they think those historic non-dun/patterned Fjords appeared.

Alright here's what we do. I'm sure there is a vet on here. We take the vet, find someone that's a good shooter. Go on safari, tranq these zebras and collect dna samples!

You fly me to Africa and I'll tranq anything you want :D

.

Threnody
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Re: What do you guys know of Zebra Genetics?

Threnody- You are my new favorite person! May I send that image to some friends of mine that I have been discussing fjord colors with. That reminds me, I need to post the story of how they think those historic non-dun/patterned Fjords appeared.

No problem. I assume you've seen the skjevete, chestnut, black and possibly Lp historic fjords?
PM me a link when you post your story I'd love to read it ^_^ I am a fellow Fjord lover.

Found out from a Zebra hunting site that the pale cream almost white ones they are calling albinos, and the other lighter golden to chocolate ones they are calling leucistic.

Probably just hunting terms to differentiate the specific color of the individuals. Technically any dilute is considered leucism since it is a reduction in pigment in an individual. The pale ones with blue eyes are a form of leucism, but "true" albino they are not since they do not completely lack pigment.

This another oddity but large and in color http://pictures.guidesandlodges.com/Pho" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false; ... wnTeqzMuBg

I wonder if there are any aa/EE Zebra, http://us.123rf.com/400wm/400/400/dirkr/..." onclick="window.open(this.href);return false; this picture here looks like a A-/EE and an aa/EE. If the striping dilutes like CM proposed, doesn't that look like Grulla to you?

The second one I have other pics of ^_^ Though they are not to the extremes of the ones I posted before, both are considered melanistic. The two I posted are the most extreme I've been able to find, and such individuals were used back in the day to argue that zebras were black with white stripes. And then people on the other side of the debate would use the subspecies of plains zebras with white legs to argue the exact opposite.

IMAGE(http://i872.photobucket.com/albums/ab283/talkingmongo0se/200px-Equus_quagga_burchellii_melanistic.jpg)

IMAGE(http://i872.photobucket.com/albums/ab283/talkingmongo0se/black_zebra.jpg)

Yes, the really loud ones look alot like baby Tapir's spots.

I've always looked at them and thought the same thing too :-D Well, horses and tapirs are cousins in the order Perissodactyl, it's probably from some part of their shared ancestry.

RANDOM BABY TAPIR CUTENESS!!! (for comparison reasons obviously...) ;-)

IMAGE(http://i872.photobucket.com/albums/ab283/talkingmongo0se/Tapirusterrestris.jpg)
IMAGE(http://i872.photobucket.com/albums/ab283/talkingmongo0se/6a00c225256b2c604a00d41425a798685e-500pi.jpg)
IMAGE(http://i872.photobucket.com/albums/ab283/talkingmongo0se/baby_tapir_lon804.jpg)

rabbitsfizz
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Re: What do you guys know of Zebra Genetics?

I want a baby Tapir, I have always thought of early horses as looking like them, many similarities.
I am not convinced, though, about Zebras base colour. You need to go to one of the breeding ranches (Texas?) there is a woman on Lil Beginnings whose mother breeds exotics, they have Zebras. Draw blood, take hair, do DNA, I would be fascinated to know for sure.
They do not have any creams but I am certain they will be working on it!
I would lay money the cream coloured ones are not Cream/ or that Zebras do not have Agouti. If they did, with cream ones running around we would, by now, have Buckskins and other derivatives, and I do not think we have.
On the reddish foal, the nose is very black, I am wondering if the baby stage is simply camouflage?
Some of them appear to attempting to emulate the American flag......

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Dogrose
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Re: What do you guys know of Zebra Genetics?

I don't think they have red; black can be very faded for many reasons, diet, genetics, stage of life, health, camouflage. Just because they look reddish doesn't make them ee. I'm betting if you saw a true ee mutated zebra you would really notice the difference.
I'm thinking they will be some type of AA, its the basic, normal wild mammal colouring, aa is just a mutation of that that some mammal species have.

[color=#804000][i]I bought me a horse twas called a grey mare
Grey mane and grey tail and green stripe on her back
Grey mane and grey tail and green stripe on her back
Weren't a hair upon her that was not coal black[/i][/color]

JNFerrigno
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Re: What do you guys know of Zebra Genetics?

Ah maybe I confused some people. Sorry. Darn cold. I wasn't saying they were 'ee'. I was saying they are born brown, and darken as they get older. Which would support the idea of pigment concentration. In looking at photos, I compared it to sooty in horses. Some horses the sooty mechanism inside will darken as they mature, others it stays at a certain shade.

I did think there was a 'aa' mutation in there some where, because some of these zebra/quagga mimics looks more grulla then bay dun.

Third Peppermint
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Re: What do you guys know of Zebra Genetics?

Do zebras ever have pigmented skin that doesn't match their hair? Just curious since Bider markings were brought up, and those markings are areas of darker skin instead of darker hair coloration.

JNFerrigno
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Re: What do you guys know of Zebra Genetics?

Wait what? So bidder markings are pigmented skin and not pigmented hair? (that doesn't make sense to me) To my knowledge Zebras have dark pigmented skin.

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Re: What do you guys know of Zebra Genetics?

very interesting topic!

Man, I wish I had kept in touch with the man who raised zebras near my grandad. We were gonna breed Mist to his stud. He was also the one to convince us not to lol! Wonder what a grey zorse would have looked like, anyway...

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accphotography
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Re: What do you guys know of Zebra Genetics?

Oh a gray zorse... wow that's one I haven't seen. I wonder if it's possible.

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TheRedHayflinger
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Re: What do you guys know of Zebra Genetics?

http://www.spotsnstripes.com/ZorseGreyGe..." onclick="window.open(this.href);return false; i knew I'd seen one before. Quote from the page that took me to that

This zorse showing the white background was bred to a mare with the dominant gray gene. At three years old, this zorse still had all his black striping. Sadly, this beautiful boy went to Rainbow Bridge before his time, so his owner could not ascertain whether the striping would gray out in his later years. However, if the animal inherited the gray gene from its horse parent, then it would seem probable or certainly possible that the gray would gradually overtake the striping.

which can be found here:
http://www.spotsnstripes.com/ZorseColorI..." onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Threnody
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Re: What do you guys know of Zebra Genetics?

I knew about the gray zorse too. It was a shame that he passed away :(
If another zorse with gray is born, it would be interesting to see how the gray would interact with the stripes over time.

So here are pics of the different types of zebras!

As mentioned there are three species of zebra. The mountain zebra, grevy's zebra and plains zebra.

Grevy's zebra

IMAGE(http://i872.photobucket.com/albums/ab283/talkingmongo0se/grevys.png)

Mountain Zebra subspecies

IMAGE(http://i872.photobucket.com/albums/ab283/talkingmongo0se/hartmans.png)

IMAGE(http://i872.photobucket.com/albums/ab283/talkingmongo0se/capemountain.png)

Plains Zebra subspecies

IMAGE(http://i872.photobucket.com/albums/ab283/talkingmongo0se/crawshays.png)

IMAGE(http://i872.photobucket.com/albums/ab283/talkingmongo0se/selous.png)

IMAGE(http://i872.photobucket.com/albums/ab283/talkingmongo0se/grants.png)

IMAGE(http://i872.photobucket.com/albums/ab283/talkingmongo0se/chapmans.png)

IMAGE(http://i872.photobucket.com/albums/ab283/talkingmongo0se/burchells.png)

IMAGE(http://i872.photobucket.com/albums/ab283/talkingmongo0se/quagga.png)

This guy apparently had an injury of some form. I don't know if what's on him is part of his treatment, or hair that grew in white from the damage.
http://www.flickr.com/photos/hannes_thir..." onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Threnody
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Re: What do you guys know of Zebra Genetics?

Forgot to add in a Plains (Burchell's) x Grevy's hybrid. Hybridization is part of the threat of Grevy's wild populations dwindling.
IMAGE(http://i872.photobucket.com/albums/ab283/talkingmongo0se/zebra_burchell_grevy.jpg)

And here's an article on it. Apparently Plain's X Grevy's hybrids are also fertile. And since these are two separate species of zebra with different chromosome counts it makes it particularly interesting. Grevy's 46, Plain's 44 , their hybrid 45. The only other inherently fertile equine inter-species hybrid I know of is that between domestic horses and przewalski's.
http://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/10.11..." onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Random info:
Mountain and Plains zebras have been crossed producing a hybrid without a dewlap

Grevy’s and Mountain zebra crosses result in a high rate of terminated births because of the large difference in chromosome count 46 vs 32 respectively.

And last but not least, Charles Darwin wrote of a rare incident of a male Zedonk mating with a female horse and foaling a 3 way hybrid. And boy do I wish this occurred in an era when photos, especially colored ones, were more common >.<

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Re: What do you guys know of Zebra Genetics?

Grevy’s and Mountain zebra crosses result in a high rate of terminated births because of the large difference in chromosome count 46 vs 32 respectively.

Gosh, they are that different!!?! I didn't realise, I just think of different zebra's like different breeds of horses!

And last but not least, Charles Darwin wrote of a rare incident of a male Zedonk mating with a female horse and foaling a 3 way hybrid. And boy do I wish this occurred in an era when photos, especially colored ones, were more common >.<

Well I guess there has beed the rare occassion of fertile mules, so anything is possible! I agree it would have been good to see pictures!!

CMhorses
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Re: What do you guys know of Zebra Genetics?

Actually I will say that we don't know how rare it is for mules to be infertile since people rarely put them with studs. (and also since nearly all john mules are gelded)

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Re: What do you guys know of Zebra Genetics?

Mules that are fertile, though, produce only Donkey or Horse foals, not 3 way hybrids, and I would presume that a Zebra would do the same?
So, it would not be a three way hybrid at all?
I had always believed that the different zebras never interbred, and this has always been the case until now, is this something to do with the dwindling numbers and the inability of the males to find mates within their own species?
There was, at the end of the 19th Century, a horse stallion running wild with the plains Zebras, but, right up until his capture, he never interbred.
I believe it takes quite a bit of jiggery pokery to get even donkeys to interbreed with horses (certainly my donkeys, who had been with other Donkeys, would have nothing at all to do with the stallion, and my friend's Donk has run with two stallions all their lives (they are now all around 13) and they have never shown any inclination to breed) so I can only imagine what it would take to get a Zebra, which is basically a wild animal, tamed, not domestic at all, to do so. Added to which, Zebras are, naturally, far more aggressive than a domestic horse or donkey.

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Third Peppermint
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Re: What do you guys know of Zebra Genetics?

Wait what? So bidder markings are pigmented skin and not pigmented hair? (that doesn't make sense to me) To my knowledge Zebras have dark pigmented skin.

The research article had stated that it was pigmented skin, like a tattoo.

Jenks
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Re: What do you guys know of Zebra Genetics?

Zebra related, but not color related. Very smart guy: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bx796zSg5gs" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Threnody
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Re: What do you guys know of Zebra Genetics?

Actually I will say that we don't know how rare it is for mules to be infertile since people rarely put them with studs. (and also since nearly all john mules are gelded)

I completely agree, and this is why the only fertile mules ever recorded are Mollys the Johns didnt stay Jacks for long :lol:

Mules that are fertile, though, produce only Donkey or Horse foals, not 3 way hybrids, and I would presume that a Zebra would do the same?
So, it would not be a three way hybrid at all?
I had always believed that the different zebras never interbred, and this has always been the case until now, is this something to do with the dwindling numbers and the inability of the males to find mates within their own species?
There was, at the end of the 19th Century, a horse stallion running wild with the plains Zebras, but, right up until his capture, he never interbred.
I believe it takes quite a bit of jiggery pokery to get even donkeys to interbreed with horses (certainly my donkeys, who had been with other Donkeys, would have nothing at all to do with the stallion, and my friend's Donk has run with two stallions all their lives (they are now all around 13) and they have never shown any inclination to breed) so I can only imagine what it would take to get a Zebra, which is basically a wild animal, tamed, not domestic at all, to do so. Added to which, Zebras are, naturally, far more aggressive than a domestic horse or donkey.

I agree, herd behavior and range are what contributed to the speciation of zebras in the first place, thats why the 3 zebra species all have different chromosome counts. They were just seperated genetically for that long. Domestic horses all have the same chromosome count, Tarpans shared the same count as domestic horses as well. Unfortunately since the tarpan died out there are no DNA tests that can be done to see if they shared all the same chromosomes or not (donkeys and horses share 19 of the same chromosomes). I think the Grevy's are exibiting their interbreeding behavior out of necessity for survival. However the foals born from grevy's hybrids do exhibit traits of both parents, but do not appear 100% Plains or Grevy's. I think it is possible that there may be some mixing of DNA.

It is true that the process of hemiclonal transmission does occur in mules, where depending on the mate of the mule, the offspring could be genetically 100% horse or donkey. Though fertile Mollys tend to only pass on their maternal genes. Mules were the first case of hemiclonal transmission ever happening in mammals.
Recently, genetic tests on mule offspring have found individuals with mixed horse and mule DNA, be it 75% donkey 25% horse or visa versa. This article explains some tests done in the late 80's that found some mixed mule foals. http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles..." onclick="window.open(this.href);return false; It's unknown how common the mixed ones occur, but they are likely much rarer than the 100% horse or donkey mule foals.

Back to Darwin... :P
IMAGE(http://i872.photobucket.com/albums/ab283/talkingmongo0se/0066125321378141650_610w.jpg)
The three way hybrid could only have been a hybrid. It wouldn't possess 2 halves of zebra horse or donkey DNA from both parents to join up together through hemiclonal transmission. It could have been a 2 or 3 way hybrid depending on what it inherited from the zorse stallion.

lipigirl
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Re: What do you guys know of Zebra Genetics?

Zebra related, but not color related. Very smart guy: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bx796zSg5gs" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

amazing !

rabbitsfizz
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Re: What do you guys know of Zebra Genetics?

Do you know what count Onagers and the other one....what it's called, starts with an "H"!!! :BH

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