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What do you guys know of Zebra Genetics?

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JNFerrigno
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What do you guys know of Zebra Genetics?
http://jnferrigno.deviantart.com/art/Australia-s-Best-Kept-Secret-103448923" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false; I ask because that creature up there, has been tormenting my head for the longest time. While I have developed a history on them in a Environmental sense, I have not approached them genetically until now. While looking up different species of Zebra, I've noticed that the Plains Zebra have the most mutations in them. I've seen zebra colors in, Black, Chocolate (not 'brown'), a Gold Cream, and a Lighter Cream. I've also observed some with brown noses, or even brown heads. And I'm on the Zebra being Agouti train now, because a number of foals are born brown, and as you watch them age you see them darken, like Sooty does to horses. So I was wondering if anyone had any color or pattern genes isolated in Zebra? Or if there were any names for suspected genes in them?
Danni
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Re: What do you guys know of Zebra Genetics?

http://jnferrigno.deviantart.com/art/Aus...
I ask because that creature up there, has been tormenting my head for the longest time. While I have developed a history on them in a Environmental sense, I have not approached them genetically until now.

LOL!!!! :lol:

accphotography
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Re: What do you guys know of Zebra Genetics?

CMHorses needs to reappear for this thread. She's done alot of studying on zebras and has far surpassed my early theories on them.

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CMhorses
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Re: What do you guys know of Zebra Genetics?

Did I hear (see?) my name? I can't believe you want my ideas :oops:
Anyway, my theory is simple; Zebras are wild bay dun, carrying brown, so genetically EE A+At DD.
Why EE? - because all zebra hybrids are obviously black based.
Why A+At? - because some hybrids have very very low points (look chestnut with black ankles,black striping and black mane/tail- this would be wild bay), some look "horse bay" with regular points, and some are very obviously brown. Also, how many horses are actually wild bay? not many, so this is why I think zebras have to have it.

Why DD?, well because all hybrids are dun, extreme dun at that, but dun.

Some obvious answers to questions are, why are they "white"?-because the dun is so extreme they are diluted that light, the color also comes back to brown when bred for less extreme dun ie: Quagga project zebras
Pangare? I say no to the type of pangare we see in horses and donkeys because if they were pangare then zorses would be too, and they are not.

To answer the question about the cream zebras, it looks to me like a new dilution, kind of similar to pearl in horses, and kind of similar to ivory in donkeys, I believe it is also homozygous only expressed (can't think of what that is called).

Another interesting point to note is that zebra hybrids CAN inherit horse and donkey white patterns (tobiano, appaloosa, donkey spotting), and more importantly, they are not skewed as they are in mules.

I am sure I am forgetting key parts of my ideas and it will take me a while to remember (also any questions might prompt me to remember).

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CMhorses
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Re: What do you guys know of Zebra Genetics?

Images to go with my previous post...
"Wild bay" Zorses
IMAGE(http://i209.photobucket.com/albums/bb13/Clue_in/zorse.jpg)
IMAGE(http://i714.photobucket.com/albums/ww142/Garganzo133/ZORSE.jpg)

"Regular Bay"
IMAGE(http://i67.photobucket.com/albums/h283/Cher_777/Zebra%20Zorse%20Zonkey/047_Stormy.jpg)
IMAGE(http://i67.photobucket.com/albums/h283/Cher_777/Zebra%20Zorse%20Zonkey/normal_Stripes72006.jpg)
"Brown"
IMAGE(http://i24.photobucket.com/albums/c41/springvalleyridersphotos/IMG_2115.jpg)
IMAGE(http://i316.photobucket.com/albums/mm334/Daniellecarson/zorse.jpg)
IMAGE(http://i259.photobucket.com/albums/hh284/hawaiifiregirrl/Future%20Pets/57804_1.jpg)
Tobiano-first 2 are same zorse
IMAGE(http://gi112.photobucket.com/groups/n193/FN0SV7ALRA/ouch.jpg)
IMAGE(http://i281.photobucket.com/albums/kk225/Leathurkatt/Randomness/ZorsePaint.jpg)
IMAGE(http://i96.photobucket.com/albums/l175/Raealyn/weird%20colors/ZipperWebPic.jpg)
Sabino? (this is the first time I've ever seen this first picture)
IMAGE(http://i5.photobucket.com/albums/y153/nicelydumb7/apr_zorse_050418_ssh.jpg)
IMAGE(http://i67.photobucket.com/albums/h283/Cher_777/Zebra%20Zorse%20Zonkey/ZJ20New2.jpg)
IMAGE(http://i236.photobucket.com/albums/ff230/GARY_Cobra_427_Viper_GTS/Zebroid/ZJANDME.jpg)

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Monsterpony
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Re: What do you guys know of Zebra Genetics?

I think that the 'white' in Zebras is really an even more extreme version of the light dun shade seen in fjords.

.

CMhorses
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Re: What do you guys know of Zebra Genetics?

Exactly, and fjords I think are wild bay based too, but its just my hunch.

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JNFerrigno
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Re: What do you guys know of Zebra Genetics?

That makes a lot of sense.

I don't know if I'll make sense right now or not, I'm currently suffering a horrible head cold that I can't shake.

That term your looking for, don't know if it's right or not, but I've been calling it double recessive or homozygous recessive. Aside from..Red, Pearl, and a few unknown dilutions I think everything else is dominate in horses. Meaning if they have it they show it (in a general sense). But like in rat colors, they have to have double copies of a recessive gene (for some colors) to show up.

Some where I have this picture of 3 zebras, lined up with their butts facing the camera. On the left was a black, in the center a Chocolate (think chocolate lab), and on the right a fully diluted one. It made me think that it was a gene like cream. There are many smokey black horses that look black, and one would never know unless tested. It makes sense when two diluted animals breed together, they produce other diluted animals, and there's a herd doing that in captivity..ugh but that would make sense if they were homozygous recessives as well.

Haw anyone found the dilution in other speicies, and not just the plains zebra?

x_x my head hurts. Cause I go back and forth on this one. For the Zeboo I have it being treated like cream, but I would like to know more about this dilution.

Danni
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Re: What do you guys know of Zebra Genetics?

"Wild bay" Zorses
IMAGE(http://i209.photobucket.com/albums/bb13/Clue_in/zorse.jpg)

That looks so cool!! I want a zorse LOL!!

accphotography
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Re: What do you guys know of Zebra Genetics?

Actually, I think it looks identical to cream in many cases so I think it's perfectly possible it IS cream.

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CMhorses
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Re: What do you guys know of Zebra Genetics?

I never noticed the carriers to be any different than regular zebras in color, probably why I did not think of it like cream, but I would love to see a "white" zebra crossed with a quagga project zebra.

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JNFerrigno
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Re: What do you guys know of Zebra Genetics?

These are some images I've collected for the Zeboo project I've been working on, I don't own any of them and don't know where I got them. But below I'll post my comments. And again, I apologize in advanced if I don't make sense. I've been bed ridden the last two days with some kind of bug, and I'm tired of laying in bed (so I'm sneaking on the computer LOL).

CM, why is it that you don't think that zebras are pangare? I don't think all zebra species are pangare, however I think the Grevy's Zebra is.
IMAGE(http://www.naturephoto-cz.eu/photos/andera/grevy%27s-zebra--5652.jpg)

Now here's where my idea has flaws. Check out the belly on this Grevy that one is not connected, however this one is. It appears regardless of species, zebra will have this fish bone like marking on their under sides, as seen here in a Plains Zebra. And if it was pangare they that black fish bone shouldn't be there right? The other flaw is that all the Grevy hybrids (that are noted at least) have all been crosses with donkies and wild asses. So even though they show pangare, it could be they inherited it from their other parent. I also saw this photo on (Leah Pattons site?) which appears to be pangare, however I don't know the parentage, one parent looks like it's a Plains Zebra, and it looks like a Zorse to me instead of a Zonkey.

IMAGE(http://www.jf-studios.com/science/00112366.jpg)
I've noticed that in many Plains Zebra this reduction in stripes and new richness in color. I don't know what areas these animals come from. Using tourist photos I've concluded that there are some herds which all express this trait, and there seems to be a dominate reduction in pattern (to the point that the hind end is void of stripes). But there are also herds of Plains Zebra where the full expression of stripes are still seen with maybe some shadow stripes here and there.

IMAGE(http://www.jf-studios.com/science/4lyvknt.jpg)
Something else I noticed with the Plains Zebra and Mountain Zebra (not really the Grevy's) is the 'white' part of their pattern has a red richness to it. Some animals it's just their hind quarters, others it is their entire body, and the color shade is usually a bright red/orange, but can also be a muddy brown color. And if CM's theory of it being an extreme case of Dun dilution is right, this would make sense, and we are seeing the Bay base coat.

Is this sooty or something else?
IMAGE(http://www.jf-studios.com/science/Cape-mountain-zebra-with-foal.jpg)
Unless diluted, all foals that I have found are born brown. With at most a black neck and lower legs, however the head and body will be entirely brown striped. It's only as they mature do they darken, and I noticed it's gradual. Some foals it looks like it starts from the hind quarters and lower legs. Others from the neck and shoulders out.

IMAGE(http://www.jf-studios.com/science/4.jpg)
Mountain Zebra

IMAGE(http://www.jf-studios.com/science/vhartmanzebra.jpg)
This is a young mountain zebra.

IMAGE(http://www.jf-studios.com/science/z2.jpg)
This is an adult Plains Zebra. I don't know if this is a result of them being Brown (At) or not, but I've seen them as minimal as a brown muzzle, to the entire face being brown. Some of them have no brown on them as all however. So what do you think, brown or sooty?

IMAGE(http://www.jf-studios.com/science/955059.jpg)
This is a Plains Zebra Foal, a deep gold color at birth. I would love to have seen what this foal grew up to look like if it survived. I can't tell if he's chestnut, diluted, or a minimal wild bay (since it just looks like he has dirty fetlocks). And I've read of rumors of Golden Zebra before, so I wonder if this is one. However the more I look at it the more I think wild bay, because the foal also has dark ear tips.

IMAGE(http://www.jf-studios.com/science/Damara%20Zebra.jpeg)
Brown Plains Zebra.

IMAGE(http://www.jf-studios.com/science/F52-347241.jpg)
This one's size looks mature, however there is still a layer of fuzz so I'm not sure if it will shed out black or not. Other foals once this size are already black, which makes me think this one will stay brown.

IMAGE(http://www.jf-studios.com/science/06.jpg)
IMAGE(http://www.jf-studios.com/science/42-16450599.jpg)
I think that is a brown Plains Zebra in the background.

IMAGE(http://www.jf-studios.com/science/Zebra_48574F.jpg)
Same light, but one reflects blue black, the other reflects brown even on the lower legs.

IMAGE(http://www.jf-studios.com/science/Z96-334902.jpg)
Here is the famous picture I was talking about before. With the black mare and two diluted foals. The photo had no information attached to it to tell me if these animals were related or not. However in wild horse behavior it's not to uncommon for the older foal to stay with their mother even if she has another foal at her side. The foal may have been weaned from the teat already, and is more of a companion then anything. But this is just me guessing.

IMAGE(http://www.jf-studios.com/science/Z96-334903.jpg)
This is the same mare and her foal. The mare appears to be a normal color, and I can make out a brown nose. These are Plains Zebra by the way.

TheRedHayflinger
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Re: What do you guys know of Zebra Genetics?

never noticed zebra belly's before....lol

check out this one though
http://www.vulkaner.no/n/africa/somalia/..." onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

accphotography
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Re: What do you guys know of Zebra Genetics?

I've seen some clearly diluted zebras that were not to the full dilution that that foal is and didn't have blue eyes (but had pumpkin skin) and that is what lead me to think maybe cream. I think it's just really unusual. But it could be some other totally recessive dilution as well, I'm not the least bit married to the cream idea, they (the full dilutes) just mimic it very well (pink skin, blue eyes, stripes diluted to what I would expect).

I don't think they're pangare' as much as that their stripes just happen to stop right there. I think it's deceiving. I ado agree that the hybrids would have VERY noticeable pangare' if the zebras really were.

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JNFerrigno
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Re: What do you guys know of Zebra Genetics?

Yeah I've seen three different shades of these 'albino' zebras. And thats the only thing I've seen them called. Even on research sites. They treat them as if they are other random albino mutations which occur in other species as well. I've seen ones with color of a brown paper bag, ones that were a cream, and others that looked like an orange creamcicle melting on a hot summer day...mmm...I want one of those right now.

accphotography
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Re: What do you guys know of Zebra Genetics?

Well the researchers consider cream an albinism gene so that fits.

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CMhorses
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Re: What do you guys know of Zebra Genetics?

I'll look over this again and address all of this, but what about sunfading? possibility?

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JNFerrigno
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Re: What do you guys know of Zebra Genetics?

I'll look over this again and address all of this, but what about sunfading? possibility?

Over the entire horse, legs included? And if sun fading, what makes them different then other Zebra?

accphotography
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Re: What do you guys know of Zebra Genetics?

Maybe fading is a recessive gene in zebras.

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CMhorses
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Re: What do you guys know of Zebra Genetics?

I find it very likely that there are several dilutions of zebras out there, I mean how many "new" DW crop ups to we have yearly? There are thousands of common zebras too, and keep in mind donkeys have at least one dilution (not talking about dun) and how few donkeys there are around.
As far as the chocolate zebra with the dam and "white" foal, I find it interesting that the dam obviously has to be a carrier for our current understanding of the zebra cream, but the dam is black, and the other "foal" is chocolate. It could just be a thing like smokey black though, some are diluted and some are pitch black, so I'm not going to rule that out.

I do find it very plausible for sunfading on some, it is in other equines, why not zebras too?

I do want to note that some of the zebras you posted were chapmans and damara zebras, yes a type of plains but they are noted for their different striping.

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accphotography
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Re: What do you guys know of Zebra Genetics?

Well that and zebras have been around alot longer.

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Re: What do you guys know of Zebra Genetics?

Yea, but they have the "wilds" playing against them, I wonder how many new dilutions and patterns have been wiped out by the lions, and its amazing the cream zebras are actually doing okay in the wild.

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Re: What do you guys know of Zebra Genetics?

The ones with brown stripes in between black stripes are throwing me for a loop.

JNFerrigno
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Re: What do you guys know of Zebra Genetics?

CM, thats what I thought with the smokey black thing. Some horses you see it, and others you don't.

CM, have you ever seen a foal that was born black instead of bay, or black like a horse foal? (physical color wise)

I ask because you've noted Zebras being EE A+At DD, and some of these zebras I've found do not have any noticeable brown on them. What do you think the cause for them darkening as they age is? Is it like the sooty we see in horses?

For the Zeboo project I'm doing, lets do a little make believe here. If you were the researcher decoding the Zebras genome, and uncovered all these things that we were just talking about. What would you call these Dilutions and Patterns, and what genetic abbreviation would you give them?

CMhorses
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Re: What do you guys know of Zebra Genetics?

Well I was thinking so many are very diluted that the brown coloring doesn't show, until you get rid of some of the dun factoring, like in this case
IMAGE(http://www.ouble.com/logos/quagga-05.jpg)
IMAGE(http://www.quaggaproject.org/Quagga-Graphic-Elements/Quagga-South-Africa.jpg)

One thing I do want to note is that they keep their dorsal while the other stripes disappear, keep breeding them for less striping and eventually you'll end up with something much darker and with only dun factoring being a dorsal and leg barring.

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Re: What do you guys know of Zebra Genetics?

I ask because you've noted Zebras being EE A+At DD, and some of these zebras I've found do not have any noticeable brown on them. What do you think the cause for them darkening as they age is? Is it like the sooty we see in horses?

The question is are the stripes actually black or very, very dense pigment like you see in the dorsal stripes of bay duns?

.

accphotography
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Re: What do you guys know of Zebra Genetics?

The question is are the stripes actually black or very, very dense pigment like you see in the dorsal stripes of bay duns?

Very good!! I hadn't really thought of that.

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Re: What do you guys know of Zebra Genetics?

Exactly, and fjords I think are wild bay based too, but its just my hunch.

I've seen a fjord x friesian cross and a fjord born without dun, both were regular bay with mealy (someones mommy and/ or daddy was heterozygous for dun ^_^) I need to figure out how to post pics because I think I may still have the photos I found of both of them.

Fjords have regular agouti with mealy and since dun dilutes both red and black pigment the fjord's version of it just dilutes more down the legs than what is seen in most other versions of it in different breeds. If I haden't seen the two individuals I just mentioned before I would still think fjords were wild bay.

Fjord zorses are pretty boring in comparison to most of those guys posted above because they prevent lots of dramatic striping from happening.

I also think zebras are red based with modifiers that concentrate pigment or allow black pigment to express in the stripes.

Quaggas appeared red based. Then again zebras could be tested for base color. I know extension tests work for donkeys. I wish I knew someone with a zebra to get tested for this >.<

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Re: What do you guys know of Zebra Genetics?

I've seen a fjord x friesian cross and a fjord born without dun, both were regular bay with mealy (someones mommy and/ or daddy was heterozygous for dun ^_^) I need to figure out how to post pics because I think I may still have the photos I found of both of them.

Pictures!!!!!! I want to see a non-dun Fjord! It has been a goal of mine since I found out that Fjords are not homozygous dun.

.

accphotography
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Re: What do you guys know of Zebra Genetics?

I also think zebras are red based with modifiers that concentrate pigment or allow black pigment to express in the stripes.

If some are, they definitely are not all. I've seen too many clearly black based hybrids out of red based dams.

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Re: What do you guys know of Zebra Genetics?

If Zebras were Agouti, would not the Cream (if they are Cream) be Buckskin, in at least some cases?
Dobes have the "white" Dobes (unfortunately!) and this is a non-diluting sort of "cream" (not white as advertised)
So, I am thinking that:
a)Zebras do not have Agouti
b) Zebras do have Agouti and the "cream" is a true albinism (ie it does not act like Cremello and dilute)
For what it's worth, I see something very akin to the affect that Appy has.
An Appy foal can be born Red, and is Red, but can shed out to appearing to be black base, due to the effect of the Appy pattern.
Maybe what we have here is the pattern affecting the base colour?

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