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What color/pattern appy on this filly?

My mare just delivered her foal last night :) She is VERY frosty, dam is silver bay appy (no roaning) and sire is chestnut leopard (few spot, can't see roaning) [img]http://i201.photobucket.com/albums/aa54/giddyupminiacres/BelleFilly5-13…] [img]http://i201.photobucket.com/albums/aa54/giddyupminiacres/BelleFilly5-13…] [img]http://i201.photobucket.com/albums/aa54/giddyupminiacres/BelleFilly5-13…] mom still has winter coat shedding this morning pictures [img]http://i201.photobucket.com/albums/aa54/giddyupminiacres/BelleFilly5-13…] [img]http://i201.photobucket.com/albums/aa54/giddyupminiacres/BelleFilly5-13…]

GiddyUp Thu, 05/14/2009 - 12:35

[quote="Sara"]Colors of sire and dam are listed above the photos.

Between being a) appy and b) mini I'm not even going to attempt a guess but congratulations on the new foal!![/quote]

LOL.... :laugh1

I get that a lot about the minis.......now appys too?! Guess that is what I get for getting a couple of appys to blend into my little herd! Let's make things more complicated, right?! :rofl

NZ Appaloosas Fri, 05/15/2009 - 22:06

Uhm, she's a varnish roan...and yes, mum's got varnish roaning going on as well. It shows on her neck and right around her withers...

Are you sure dad's a fewspot? Have you seen photos of him as a baby? Our old stallion was registered here in NZ as a fewspot, since he was so white when he got here...his ApHC papers said "dun with blanket"...

Diane

GiddyUp Tue, 05/19/2009 - 13:29

[quote="NZ Appaloosas"]Uhm, she's a varnish roan...and yes, mum's got varnish roaning going on as well. It shows on her neck and right around her withers...

Are you sure dad's a fewspot? Have you seen photos of him as a baby? Our old stallion was registered here in NZ as a fewspot, since he was so white when he got here...his ApHC papers said "dun with blanket"...

Diane[/quote]

This mare has NO roaning on her at all. What you see is her winter coat still shedding as she is taking her time getting rid of it all and I don't want to clip her.

She is not of my breeding and the foal goes back to where I got the mare from :cry: but that was the deal when I got her so it has to be.....Of course they are VERY happy with her and plan to keep her for their appy program and I am very happy to see what she can produce.

Picture of sire:

[img]http://www.hoofweb.com/castlerock/red1…]

NZ Appaloosas Wed, 05/20/2009 - 00:14

I dunno if it's the way the hair is growing, or if he's clipped, but I'm seeing a hint of a blanket line on him...any chance of a baby photo of him?

As an example...

Now, and people seeing him for the first time say he's a leopard/near leopard...
[img]http://i62.photobucket.com/albums/h116/…]

The day he was born--might get away with near leopard, but most would say large blanket/blanket to withers...
[img]http://i172.photobucket.com/albums/w32/…]

rabbitsfizz Wed, 05/20/2009 - 06:08

Diane, is there any reason why your colt cannot be both...ie Near Leopard and Blanket???
I have seen many, many "blankets" ie born Blanket, mature out into near Leopards....in fact the majority of European, and for that matter, American, Minis do not retain the clear Blanket markings that Big Horse Appies sometimes have.
My own colt, who is at the moment a striking Blanket, also has spots all over the dark bits and signs of losing the colour under the spots.
His sire is Pintaloosa but he has no indication of having carried the Pinto on, I have just clipped him and I can see roaning on his neck now....it might go as the coat grows back, I am the first to say you cannot tell a colour on a clipped horse!!!

NZ Appaloosas Wed, 05/20/2009 - 20:23

[quote="rabbitsfizz"]Diane, is there any reason why your colt cannot be both...ie Near Leopard and Blanket???
I have seen many, many "blankets" ie born Blanket, mature out into near Leopards....in fact the majority of European, and for that matter, American, Minis do not retain the clear Blanket markings that Big Horse Appies sometimes have.
My own colt, who is at the moment a striking Blanket, also has spots all over the dark bits and signs of losing the colour under the spots.
His sire is Pintaloosa but he has no indication of having carried the Pinto on, I have just clipped him and I can see roaning on his neck now....it might go as the coat grows back, I am the first to say you cannot tell a colour on a clipped horse!!![/quote]

I don't know, Rabbit. If there is indeed separate genes causing the differences in patterning, rather than a combination of inhibitors/enhancers, then I guess it is possible for a horse to have both. One mare we have shows a "different" blanket pattern under her skin than on her coat. Which would make me think she roaned into the blanket size she has now, except for the fact that everyone says she's been like this forever, and she's never roaned out more in the 9 years I've known her.

Now, with Casey, you can see where he both pigmented back in, and then "roaned" out (something I hadn't really noticed until I put those two pix together). But the roaning you mention is why I always ask, when someone says "leopard", what was the birth/foal shed pattern?

Diane

NZ Appaloosas Wed, 05/20/2009 - 20:28

[quote="accphotography"]I see the blanket line too. Not sure if he's what people here generally call near leopard or not.[/quote]

ACC, if you're talking about the 'leopard' above my post, then yes, people would call him leopard, just seeing him. If you're talking about Casey, then yeah, I would just call it an extensive blanket. To me, a near leopard has a dark head, maaaaybe a little 'solid' colour on the top of the neck. Not down the front like he has.

Diane

GiddyUp Thu, 05/21/2009 - 08:49

More pictures of this little lady. On her back legs just above her knees, there is more of a white area with little spots that are hard to see on pictures but they are there. And then the white in her fur goes right up to her head, just not as white has the rest of her....yet! You can see the white hair around her eyes.

So I am told by appy breeders she could be a snowcap or some sort of leopard. Your thoughts please...

[img]http://i201.photobucket.com/albums/aa54…]

[img]http://i201.photobucket.com/albums/aa54…]

[img]http://i201.photobucket.com/albums/aa54…]

[img]http://i201.photobucket.com/albums/aa54…]

[img]http://i201.photobucket.com/albums/aa54…]

I would LOVE to see other foal pictures that started this way and ended up however they did.

accphotography Thu, 05/21/2009 - 14:59

Frankly, I don't see a pattern at all. I only see roaning. Generally snowcaps and leopard patterns are VERY white. This filly has red roaning throughout all of her white. I really think she's an advanced varnish.

NZ Appaloosas Thu, 05/21/2009 - 21:37

I'm with ACC on this, with this filly--it's more like she's got a dump of snowflaking on her bum than an actual blanket. I'd stick with 'frosted', possibly "lacy blanket", if you don't want to go with varnish roan. Of course, foal shed could possibly give more definition, but right now, I can't really call that a blanket.

This one has a bit more delineation of a blanket than your filly...

[img]http://i62.photobucket.com/albums/h116/…]

Diane.

Daylene Alford Fri, 05/22/2009 - 10:46

Varnish roan is an appaloosa pattern and is different from classic roan. It thought to be caused by LP that is present without a PATN gene. So she would have inherited it from her sire.

rabbitsfizz Fri, 05/22/2009 - 13:22

I have often said the Appy people should pick another word...Frosting is beautiful, why not call it Frosted Varnish and drop the roan??
I'm too old to start another "tovero/overo" debacle, so I shall leave that one for you to think about!!!!
I think this little lady is Frosted, I do not see any spots, theretofore she is not any kind of Leopard, near or far :laugh1
She may well end up a "False Fewspot" there are loads of them about, especially in Minis, where the horse is almost white and "carries" Appy so it must be a Fewspot??

Diane the reason I raised the "blanket/leopard" thing is that I do think different genes are involved as with Tobiano and Splash, a friend of mine has a clear, clear leopard mare, loads of spots, clear white ground and dark (not sure if Black or Bay) spots all over her, BUT I was studying her for want of something better to do while we stood around in the line up, and the spots in the blanket area are a different shape to those on the body and then, of course, once I was really looking, I could see, since she was newly clipped and skinned down to the skin, too, that she had a clearly demarked blanket ground that was pink based against the rest of her normal beige skin colour (not bright pink, just pinker).
It was weird, I wish I had thought to take a picture (and Yes, I would have waited til we were out of the ring, not even I am nuts enough to start taking snapshots in the ring at the Royal International Horse Show

NZ Appaloosas Sat, 05/23/2009 - 00:33

Heck, we can't get the ApHC to even use the term "leopard"...every horse with a pattern is some sort of "roan", so how confusing is that? But the whole "false" snowcap/fewspot thing is why I ask about baby photos. Altho' that can also be problematic, as apparently sabino can help mimic these patterns, well, at least the snowcap pattern...

And I'm much happier seeing a white (even if roaned out, like our old stallion) horse being called a fewspot than seeing a brown horse with a handful of white spots being called a fewspot!!! :hammer :hammer :hammer :hammer Just because a horse has only a couple of spots does NOT make it a fewspot. :BH :BH :BH

[quote] BUT I was studying her for want of something better to do while we stood around in the line up, and the spots in the blanket area are a different shape to those on the body and then, of course, once I was really looking, I could see, since she was newly clipped and skinned down to the skin, too, that she had a clearly demarked blanket ground that was pink based against the rest of her normal beige skin colour (not bright pink, just pinker).[/quote]

I happen to agree with you, but think that this is what falls into the whole multi-gene pattern part of the entire Lp gene complex..that there is one gene that says "this will be a spotted-coated horse", and then there are other genes that either turn on the amount of white that is shown...

But, having said that as well, in looking at our old stallion, his skin colouring was very different, when wet, in the areas where he had colour at birth vs where his blanket was, so is it just a function of roaning, and your friend's leopard mare "roaned" out into a clear leopard? When it is next warm enough to bathe Mr Casey, I'm gonna have to look closely at his skin.

Diane

NZ Appaloosas Sat, 05/23/2009 - 01:19

I would go with varnish or frosted for this mare as well. That's one of the reasons why I call our giraffaloosa a varnish roan with blanket--he gets the colour dumping that varnish can leave behind, BUT he also had a blanket pattern...this mare just shows the varnish roaning, similar to what MP's Tony had, but not to his extensive level.

And I'd also like to point out that she's black based...giving more credibility to the whole black = suppression idea. :bounce :laugh1

Diane

NZ Appaloosas Sat, 05/23/2009 - 02:30

Yes, if the black = suppression theory is true. Skeets has less, but on the flip side of that argument, she does have spots, too...but back onto the other flip side, I'm watching a show where there's a horse, probably around the same age, with less 'frosting' (hubby and I were debating the whole sabino roan v. app roan thing, but the horse did have stripey feet and sclera, and what looked like one or two spots trying to poke thru' where the roaning was on the lighter side).

Diane