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What color is this mare?

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Jenks
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Re: What color is this mare?

We know dun is not a mutation of MATP. Totally different chromsome!

Darnit, I didn't get it out in time.

horsegen
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Re: What color is this mare?

Well, we can't ever know what a horse would have looked like if its genetic makeup were different. But then again, that's not a reason to say that a single copy of cream never dilutes black, either. All we really know is that some blacks carry a single copy of cream and still look very black, and some blacks carry a single copy of cream and look diluted. We can probably file this under "we don't really know". I have a photo of a horse that tested Ee/aa/CCcr, no champagne, no dun, no pearl, etc. and he is VERY, very brown. Much lighter than you would expect even from a faded black. (He almost looks like a chestnut, except you can see his dark points, which are diluted to a very dark brown.) He was by a buckskin and out of a chestnut, I believe. I don't know for sure if it's that single dose of cream doing that to his coat, but I sure can't say it isn't!

I don't think I'm allowed to post the photo on here, as it came in as part of the coat color testing request. Those photos are private, unfortunately.

accphotography
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Re: What color is this mare?

This horse is black, no cream:
IMAGE(http://www.mikarmafarm.com/images/WFRtLook032209web.jpg)

So not only do we have a case that sometimes it DOESN'T show for sure, but then we have a case where non cream blacks can look light enough to be thought cream. We're taking out a hefty dose of the black population with just those two categories. What's left, who knows why it looks the way it does.

Point being, in this case, we're dealing with big horses (not minis), horses with extensive white patterns and people who have no clue about such things as smokey blacks. It would be very, very, very easy for there to be 6 generations of smokey black without anyone ever noticing (how a person could miss a buckskin out of a blue roan and by a chestnut I dunno, but it happens all the time).

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appycowgirl64
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Re: What color is this mare?

Okay, now answer me this question as I am stumped. The dam, Star, of the filly that I had the original question about is a chestnut and her dam was definitely dark brown as I saw her dam when I bought her, but when I look at All Breed, they say that she was out of 2 chestnut parents and all of those are out of chestnuts. So how the heck does the dark brown pop up. Here is Star's pedigree. http://www.allbreedpedigree.com/plaudit+..." onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
When I pull up Star's grand dam sale page that I had someone send to me as her grand dam was sold at the 1974 Carl Miles liquidation sale, it lists her grand dam as a sorrel. I know that Prince Plaudit was a chestnut. Her is her grand dam's sale page and it it listing Star's mother as being by her side.

LL Appaloosas Loretta Grosset Standing: Dial A Challenge Grulla Appaloosa reining stallion, FPD registered ApHC Nat'l and Res. World Champion Sire, ROM and Bronze Medallion Sire PSSM1 n/n, GBED n/n, HERDA n/n, OLWS n/n Splash White - SW1 n/SW1, SW

accphotography
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Re: What color is this mare?

With that pedigree, I'm sure she was just liver (or was going through that funky chestnut foal stage where they could pass for black). She's only thrown red foals and I just don't see any way for her to have gotten an 'E' based on her pedigree.

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appycowgirl64
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Re: What color is this mare?

Well she must have been a really dark liver then because even when you look at ApHC records they have her listed as dark bay or brown and when I saw Star's dam she was 19 and looked dark brown to me, but liver chestnut could definitely look like a dark brown. Now what causes a horse out of two parents that definitely look red, go that dark in their coat color.

LL Appaloosas Loretta Grosset Standing: Dial A Challenge Grulla Appaloosa reining stallion, FPD registered ApHC Nat'l and Res. World Champion Sire, ROM and Bronze Medallion Sire PSSM1 n/n, GBED n/n, HERDA n/n, OLWS n/n Splash White - SW1 n/SW1, SW

accphotography
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Re: What color is this mare?

That's random as well.

This is a liver:
http://www.whitehorseproductions.com/ima..." onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

She wouldn't even have to be anywhere near that dark. When you add a white pattern and roaning to the mix it can hide things you might have otherwise noticed.

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Danni
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Re: What color is this mare?

I totally agree that black with cream can look totally black, and blacks without cream often have a 'brownish' diluted look. However I really do think that sometimes cream DOES effect black slightly, and it's not just what the coat would be without the cream.

This my smokey black colt, it's a very new coat with his foal coat just out. With his foal coat it was hard to tell but now I do think this 'looks' like a smokey black. Not a faded black. There is a difference, when the cream does effect the black that is. I have seem smokey blacks that look more a faded black and they are hard to pick until testing. However I have seen a few this richer, off black colour and so far all the ones I've seen have been smokey blacks. It's not a bleached look like most fading blacks, if that makes sense?

I don't even think this photo shows it very well, but if you've seen smokey blacks this colour hopfully you understand what I mean!

IMAGE(http://farm2.static.flickr.com/1250/4600829268_7d30c373b8.jpg)

accphotography
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Re: What color is this mare?

Ok, YOU can see it, maybe even I can see it... but how many average horse people who aren't obsessed with color could see it? How many every day App breeders would recognize it?

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Heather
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Re: What color is this mare?

This horse is black, no cream:
IMAGE(http://www.mikarmafarm.com/images/WFRtLook032209web.jpg)

So not only do we have a case that sometimes it DOESN'T show for sure, but then we have a case where non cream blacks can look light enough to be thought cream. We're taking out a hefty dose of the black population with just those two categories. What's left, who knows why it looks the way it does.

Point being, in this case, we're dealing with big horses (not minis), horses with extensive white patterns and people who have no clue about such things as smokey blacks. It would be very, very, very easy for there to be 6 generations of smokey black without anyone ever noticing (how a person could miss a buckskin out of a blue roan and by a chestnut I dunno, but it happens all the time).

That look s like any black horse living in FL outside ... :?

RiddleMeThis
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Re: What color is this mare?

This is a black with no testable dilutions who ALWAYS looks like this and according to his owner has NEVER looked black.
IMAGE(http://www.equine-color.info/gallery2/d/1248-2/Ali+Zeus+_2_.jpg)

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horsegen
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Re: What color is this mare?

The photo that Danni posted looks like many of the (tested) smoky blacks I've seen.

Jenks
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Re: What color is this mare?

Do you think that Dun could be strictly structural? and not melanin? I'm thinking about how hoofpick was able to id dun based on structure. I wonder if Creme has any structural differences in the hair shaft too?

rabbitsfizz
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Re: What color is this mare?

As far as I, and obviously a number of other people as well, are concerned, a single dilution of Cream can and does show on Black.
ACC, it is no use stamping your foot and being rude when people have the temerity to question what you say.
You were very rude to me, and you have absolutely no basis for that rudeness other than I disagreed with you!
This Forum is for discussing colour and colour related questions, I would thank you to remember that.

website: please come and visit... http://www.shadowplayminihorses.co.uk/

Jenks
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Re: What color is this mare?

We can all discuss all points - apparently not exactly like family - but in an adult fashion! I'm sorry you are offended Rabbit.

accphotography
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Re: What color is this mare?

As far as I, and obviously a number of other people as well, are concerned, a single dilution of Cream can and does show on Black.
ACC, it is no use stamping your foot and being rude when people have the temerity to question what you say.
You were very rude to me, and you have absolutely no basis for that rudeness other than I disagreed with you!
This Forum is for discussing colour and colour related questions, I would thank you to remember that.

Sorry if you interpreted my post as rude RF. I felt the same of yours (and many other posts from you). My intent was not to offend you.

It is stated by nearly every testing lab that the cream dilution has no effect on eumelanin. In most cases on large horses it is invisible. To say that occasionally one can see it is one thing. To state that it is visible in all cases, period, is a completely different story. To tell me flat out that I am wrong, as if I had said two chestnuts could produce a black, when most of the evidence points the other way, is a bit out there IMO.

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rabbitsfizz
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Re: What color is this mare?

First off, you have to understand that the labs do not see a lot of these horses, I can understand how you would want to consign this to the realms of "Silver does not show on Red" but it really is not the same.
In quite a few cases a single dilute of Cream quite obviously does show on Black, we get at least one case a week on LB, it would seem (maybe that is an exaggeration but it is quite a few.) these are often foals, btw, so no time to get sun bleached.
This has got to the point where Freeland has to remind them occasionally, by showing them his jet Black Smoky Black stallion, that Cream does not always show on Black!
So I was absolutely flabbergasted when you stated that as categorical fact.
It most certainly is not, as not only I have now pointed out..........

And as to offending you, I can only say that I have never intentionally done so, and would apologise if it were pointed out to me, which I do not believe you have ever done? It does seem, however, that with you and RMT I will be hung for a sheep or a lamb, but hung nonetheless, nothing I seem to say is ever quite acceptable to either of you.

*Sigh*

website: please come and visit... http://www.shadowplayminihorses.co.uk/

RiddleMeThis
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Re: What color is this mare?

How in the world did I get brought into this??!! I have said absolutely nothing inn this thread about you or even TO you.,

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accphotography
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Re: What color is this mare?

And what type of horses are you looking at on LB? ;)

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Third Peppermint
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Re: What color is this mare?

Okay, I have a dumb question.

Do black horses JUST have eumelanin or are they pheomelanin covered by eumelanin?

I was thinking that maybe one cream doesn't touch the eumelanin part of a black horse's coat, but depending on the concentration of black, maybe the dilution of eumelanin can show through.

Does that make any sense?

accphotography
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Re: What color is this mare?

Yes, it makes perfect sense. I don't know the answer. I've always been lead to believe they have no pheomelanin, but since it's the "default" melanin it wouldn't surprise me if they actually do have it somehow. I mean we know agouti can turn off the eumelanin, thereby producing pheomelanin. *shrugs*

ETA: This is actually my theory about how agouti COULD have an effect on red bases in certain cases.

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nerd
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Re: What color is this mare?

The answer to your question is probably in this paper, which I don't have access to:

Pigment Types of Various Color Genotypes of Horses
SPONENBERG DP, ITO S, ENG LA, SCHWINK K
PIGMENT CELL RESEARCH Volume: 1 Issue: 6 Pages: 410-413 Published: 1988
ABSTRACT
Hair samples of various colors of horses were analyzed for content of both eumelanin and pheomelanin by a procedure using high performance liquid chromatography. The results are in accord with generally accepted genetic hypotheses accounting for the various colors. However, the results support the hypothesis that the chestnut/sorrel group of colors is conditioned by the extension locus, not the brown locus. The results also indicate that the brown locus is a likely contributor to some rare color phenotypes

Third Peppermint
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Re: What color is this mare?

I'll see if I can get it. Usually I can log in through my university and get access to a lot of these articles.

Scratch that... I can't get that journal any earlier than 1999. Figures!

nerd
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Re: What color is this mare?

You might try checking if your university has a print copy somewhere in the dark, dusty stacks of some obscure wing of some random library. Sometimes you get lucky and there are print editions up to the date where the online ones became available (and sometimes not :roll: )

Actually, was anyone on this board in contact with Sponenberg?

Third Peppermint
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Re: What color is this mare?

It seems like OSU doesn't have any older print copies of that journal. Looks like I can get it through the OhioLINK service so I might request it from another university.

NZ Appaloosas
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Re: What color is this mare?

He's on the Appaloosa Project, and I've emailed him once or twice. Not sure if that qualifies for asking him to email me a copy of that paper, tho'.

Okay, I've sent off an email, either he'll answer or ignore it

Diane

accphotography
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Re: What color is this mare?

He might know the answer to the question. I wish Horsegen would chime in again.

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NZ Appaloosas
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Re: What color is this mare?

A reply from Dr. Sponenberg was in my inbox when I got up this AM...he's sending me a copy of the article, and as soon as I get it, I'll post it.

Diane

Daylene Alford
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Re: What color is this mare?

Did you invite him to the forum? :angel

horsegen
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Re: What color is this mare?

Sorry, so busy...3 weeks of pregnancy left and I have to fly to Boston on Tuesday for a job interview...

Black horses produce eumelanin only. It's not pheomelanin "hiding" under eumelanin. The melanocytes are instructed by the binding of melanocyte stimulating hormone to the melanocortin-1 receptor to make eumelanin. If the receptor is defective, MSH cannot bind and the cells default to making pheomelanin. In the case of bay horses, agouti can bind to the receptor instead, blocking it. That also causes the cells to default to pheomelanin production.

So it's an "either/or" situation, not a both! That paper of Sponenberg's basically just states that when they looked at the hairs of black horses vs. chestnut horses, they saw that black hairs had eumelanin, while chestnut hairs had pheomelanin. That was a key that chestnut was caused by a mutation in extension and not the "brown" (also known as tyrosinase) locus. The "brown" locus still results in the production of eumelanin, so they knew that probably wasn't what was mutated in chestnuts.

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